Good morning everyone, and welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread! This week we’ll be following Sigzil as he goes over some important issues with Kaladin, and see the recruitment of new soldiers into Bridge Four begin.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. In this chapter we don’t have any broader Cosmere discussion, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Sigzil
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.6.1 (Same day as the last chapter)
Sigzil awakes and makes his way through the chaos of Bridge Four breakfast in order to report in to Kaladin about a slew of issues—quarters for the married members of the bridgecrew, social reassignment forms, religions, and recruitment. They run into Lyn, who—after a brief misunderstanding—is invited to try out for the bridgecrew. Sigzil continues his conversation with Kaladin regarding even more important matters—chain of command, social structure, and wages. They arrive at their destination and check out the entire royal emerald reserve, which they’ll be using to practice their newfound Knights Radiant powers.
The Singing Storm
Title: First Into the Sky
“I don’t want to be huddled over a ledger when Bridge Four takes to the air. I want to be first into the sky.”
A: Well, that’s fairly obvious! They don’t actually get there this week, but they’re itching to go.
Heralds
L: For this chapter we’ve got the Joker and Kalak. I’d say it’s pretty obvious as to why the Joker is here—Sigzil was Hoid’s apprentice, after all. But Kalak (divine attributes Resolute and Builder, patron of Willshapers)? Alice, you have any theories?
A: Seems odd, doesn’t it? Shouldn’t it be Jezrien for the Windrunners? But my best guess is that Kalak represents what they’re doing with Bridge Four: building it into a new structure. Sigzil, with his excellent questions about the chain of command, morals, codes of conduct, etc., is setting about the task of building a new way of functioning for this team. They aren’t slaves and they aren’t guards; they’re something new to modern-day Roshar, and he’s doing his best to put it on a solid foundation.
Icon
Bridge 4 Uniform Shoulder Patch, denoting a chapter from the POV of someone in Bridge 4.
A: I was so excited to see our second new character icon for this book! Bridge Four has its own icon now, and it marks the beginning of the second novelette in Oathbringer. (The first is Venli’s story.) I know some people weren’t thrilled about how much time was spent on it, but I love every minute of the Bridge Four Story, and I’m delighted that they have their own sequence.
L: The Bridge Four sections were some of my favorite parts of the book! It’s just so nice to see things from a different perspective.
Epigraph
You think yourself so clever, but my eyes are not those of some petty noble, to be clouded by a false nose and some dirt on the cheeks.
L: Interestingly, Hoid does seem to prefer tricking the nobility, doesn’t he? The only exception I can think of right now is his appearance in the original Mistborn trilogy, when he was tricking the rebellion.
Stories & Songs
L: Let’s talk a little about the story that Sigzil tries—and fails—to tell, here. I’m not going to quote it because honestly he does such an awful job (poor thing) that it’ll probably be easier to just paraphrase. The third moon wants to escape the sky, so it tricks the queen of the Natan people into changing places with it—and this is why the Natan people have blue skin. Supposedly it was supposed to be about responsibility. Honestly, I’m just as clueless as Kal, here. Sigzil really, really isn’t a good storyteller.
A: Ain’t that the truth! He’s terrible. Mostly because he didn’t know what he wanted to say, I think, and chose the wrong story as well as telling the story badly. Fortunately, Hoid will tell the story properly when we get to Chapter 67. For now, I’m not even going to guess at how the story was supposed to fit the point he wanted to make. Poor thing.
Bruised & Broken
“You know what Teft has gotten into.”
L: Ah, our first glimpse into the firemoss addiction. Poor Teft. Chemical addiction is so, so hard to break—and I say this as (unfortunately) a cigarette smoker of about 15 years, which is probably one of the least addictive “drugs” out there. (I’m trying to quit, but like Teft, not having such an easy time of it.) We’ll obviously be getting more about Teft later, so I’ll leave it at that unless Alice wants to add anything in.
A: I just remember on the first read being baffled at the hints Sigzil was dropping here, and how much it hurt to find out what “the other thing” was. Teft was clearly having trouble fulfilling his responsibilities to Bridge Four, and that was worrying.
Squires & Sidekicks
He sucked in a breath at the pain, and his sphere winked out. What …
His skin started glowing, letting off a faint luminescent smoke. Oh, right. Kaladin was back.
A: I just had to point this out, because it was not only a clever way of reminding the reader that Kaladin is back, and these are his squires, the wording also made me laugh. “Oh, yeah. THAT.”
In that same section, it’s just sort of slipped in that the men with slave brands who can draw in Stormlight have all lost their brands, and they all keep their tattoos. Kaladin, of course, is just the opposite, having kept his brands but melted off the tattoo.
“Peet is now officially betrothed to the woman he’s been seeing.”
“Ka? That’s wonderful.”
L: These are tuckerizations of Peter Ahlstrom—Sanderson’s assistant—and his wife Karen.
“And then there’s the matter of Drehy…”
“What matter?”
“Well, he’s been courting a man, you see…”
Kaladin threw on his coat, chuckling. “I did know about that one. You only now noticed?”
L: I can’t tell you how happy Kaladin’s reaction here made me. This is clearly a complete non-issue for him. One of his men is gay? Cool by him. While it’s important to have literature that deals with the prejudice and violence that the LGBTQIA community has to endure, it’s also nice to see a society that just doesn’t care. Whoever you are, is who you are. Fantasy is, for many of us, an escape—so it’s nice to be able to escape to a place that accepts us for who we are. It seems as though this is a sentiment held by the Alethi in general—we’ll discuss a little bit about the Azir system lower down.
Anyway, this is all aside from the fact that Drehy is awesome. I hope that we see more of him in the next book!
A: It’s funny; only yesterday I was chatting with a friend who is reading Oathbringer for the first time, and he’d just read this chapter. He was puzzled as to why this was included, since, “It’s not like Sanderson to include character details that don’t directly affect the plot.” I couldn’t honestly tell him why, other than that he wanted book-Drehy to reflect real-life-Drehy, and a number of fans were clamoring for representation. I’m still ambivalent about how critical it is for an author to include “representation” (of whatever) if it’s not needed by the plot, but then I’m not the author, so my ambivalence is pretty irrelevant, eh?
L: I think it’s important to the character and the world-building if not the actual plot. We see a lot of social constructs that don’t directly tie into the story, like safe-hands and men not being able to read. Kaladin’s seasonal depression informs who he is as a person, but it doesn’t affect the plot too much (Note: his SEASONAL depression during the Weeping, not the overlying depression he suffers from in addition to that). I could go on… Renarin’s issues. Adolin’s obsession with fashion. So why not this, too?
Kaladin eyed Lyn as they walked. “You’re the one who has been helping my men, right? Lyn, was it?”
L: Well, I promised I would talk about this eventually, so here you go—skip this section if the circumstances behind my tuckerization don’t interest you.
For what it’s worth, I always feel a little self-conscious talking about this, because I know that it was due to an extremely lucky chain of occurrences, and just how many other people would kill to have such an opportunity. I can only say that I understand and wouldn’t blame anyone for being jealous or hating me for it—just know that in return, I have put in a TON of work behind the scenes beta-reading and hunting typos in a desire to repay that which was given to me. (In addition to giving Sanderson cookies every time he visits New England.)
So, story-time. Let’s hope I’m a better storyteller than Sig.
A: You are. Trust.
L: Years and years ago, I was gaining some weird stalkers on Reddit. I decided that it was time to change my username in order to avoid them—and I’d just read this storming fantastic book The Way of Kings. “Kaladin Stormblessed is a great name and I adore him,” I thought, and shockingly no one had taken it yet. So Kaladin_Stormblessed I became. Shortly thereafter, I was invited to be a moderator on the newly minted Stormlight Archive subreddit. Months later, in an AskReddit post, someone asked “If you could live in any fictional world, what would it be?” I replied Roshar: “maybe I could get a chance to fight alongside my namesake.” Imagine my surprise when Brandon REPLIED to my comment and said “I can make that happen for you.” Years later, he told me that someone had sent him a PM linking him to the comment (thank you, whoever you were). Sure enough, Lyn showed up in Words of Radiance—a very brief, blink-you’ll-miss-it mention during the final battle in the end. I was overjoyed. Thrilled. Ecstatic. I got to talk to Shallan. Not really, I know. But I didn’t come down off that high for a long time. I actually got the glyph for Bridge Four tattooed on my upper arm to commemorate this (as well as for other reasons).
I’d assumed that that was it, and I was perfectly happy for it to be so. But then we got the beta for Oathbringer. I am not ashamed to admit that I cried (a lot) when I read how awesome Lyn was in here.
A: And you should have seen the cheering and “shouting” in the beta inputs when Lyn became more a part of Bridge Four! Not to take away from her personal joy in any way, but there is a certain feeling that Lyn is “ours” and it was delightful to watch her character grow. I can only speak for myself, really, but in a way I feel like Lyn is Lyn, and Lyn is also all of the readers. As “one of us,” she … she is us.
L: That makes me feel a little less self-conscious, actually. Someone in the comments on a previous chapter’s reread asked me if Sanderson had used my actual “IRL” personality traits or just my name/appearance, and to be honest? I don’t know. I can tell you that I think he knows me well enough by now to know the type of person I am, and Lyn is very much like me. I’ve always been more at home with “the guys” and would much rather be out fighting with a sword (or a spear) than doing other, more feminine things. I work construction. I swear (a lot). When I read Lyn, I do see myself. Is this just because she so neatly fits the tomboy archetype, and—let’s face it—that’s also me? Or did Sanderson do it on purpose? The only real answer I have is that I thanked him at a signing for “giving me the chance to smash the Rosharan patriarchy” and he smiled and said “I thought you’d like that.”
I’m so thankful to be able to fight with Kaladin and the rest of Bridge Four, and to literally be a part of this great work that I love so much. If he decided to kill Lyn off I’d be completely fine with that (though I would be sad, because I love how she challenges traditional Alethi gender roles). But Stormlight has changed my life for the better, as it has for so many others, and to be a part of that? There’s no feeling in the world like it. I’ll owe Sanderson for it until the day I die.
Okay. I’m done. (Gentle reminder that I am also an epic fantasy writer and hence typing out novels worth of text like this is pretty much a daily occurrence…)
Moash had been the closest to Kaladin, but he wasn’t in Bridge Four any longer. Kaladin hadn’t said what Moash had done, only that he had “removed himself from our fellowship.”
L: Obligatory f*** Moash. (Yes, I’m going to do it every time, and you can’t stop me.)
A: I hated Moash before it was cool. #noredemption (And yes, I do have that on a t-shirt, thank you very much.)
Flora & Fauna
It had come again, a third time, this event proving that that it was even more regular than the highstorms. Right around every nine days.
L: In Ross’s Highstorm article, he theorizes that the Highstorm needs to return to the Origin to recharge before sweeping across Roshar again. However, the Everstorm appears to have a specific constant speed that never varies. Meteorologically and scientifically, this is pretty fascinating. Most storms lose energy as they progress—as that energy is transferred to other things (trees, water, etc…). Is there something going on in the atmosphere that’s keeping the Everstorm so constant, or is it simply due to the magical nature of the storm? What fuels it?
A: That’s a question … and I fear the answer. Whatever fuels it, it’s not good. I mean, the obvious answer is “Odium”—but I think there’s a little more to the “mechanism” that could be frightening. Or I could just be a sucker for symbolism.
Places & Peoples
They wouldn’t last a day in Azir, where queuing in an orderly way wasn’t only expected, it was practically a mark of national pride.
L: Reminds me of similar jokes about the UK.
A: Or Canada.
Everyone in Azir talked about how even the humblest man could become Prime, but the son of a laborer had so little time to study.
L: Does the current Prime prove this to be true, or not?
A: Heh. Well, the nephew of a thief, anyway. It’s a cute little reminder of how bad things had gotten in Azir since Sigzil left, though. When he was there, just becoming a government cleric involved a lot of study, and becoming Prime required eloquence and persuasive rhetoric. That was before a certain king got hold of a certain assassin. This last time, it was going to go to anyone they could pawn it off on—and then there was a miracle that justified choosing a thief. Go figure.
“Drehy hasn’t filled in the proper forms,” Sigzil said. “If he wants to court another man, he needs to apply for social reassignment, right?”
Kaladin rolled his eyes.
“Then how do you apply for social reassignment?”
“We don’t.”
L: I like that Azir is also apparently fine with homosexuality, provided the people fill out forms. If only it could be so easy to be accepted in our world. Oh, you’re gay? Okay, cool. Sign this piece of paper and no one will bother you about it again.
A: The drawback to the Azir situation is that they really do socially reassign you, as I understand it. You sign that paper, and you are now a woman and will be treated as a woman. Which is kind of bizarre, because what about lesbians? Do they “become men” when they’re reassigned? Or is just one half of each couple designated as the other sex? Or how does that work? Any way you look at it, it’s a little skeevy, and not quite as accepting as it looks on the surface.
Or maybe that’s non-canon, and he’ll clarify in the next book or something. Once can hope.
L: Hmm, yes. If we were talking about trans people that would make sense, but otherwise? Not so much. And what about people who are bi? Do they have to choose? I hope that it doesn’t work that way. We’ll just have to wait and see I guess!
“All right, then what’s our chain of command? Do we obey King Elhokar? Are we still his subjects? And what dahn or nahn are we in society? … Who pays the wages of Bridge Four? What about the other bridge crews? If there is a squabble over Dalinar’s lands in Alethkar, can he call you—and Bridge Four—up to fight for him, like a normal liege-vassal relationship? If not, then can we still expect him to pay us?”
L: I LOVE that Sanderson is willing to ask all these questions. I feel like these sorts of things are often overlooked in favor of “omg dragons and swords and cool stuff” in fantasy—and especially in epic fantasy. The little nitty-gritty, the logistics of how a society runs… all of this stuff is so important to the characters, and lends so much realism to Roshar.
A: This was brilliant, IMO. It’s not so much that I enjoy logistics, but I hate it when people pretend it doesn’t matter. It does matter—plus it’s such a perfect thing for our resident Azish dude to think about, and to insist that it get sorted out before it becomes an issue.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Say, do you know how to get two armed Herdazians to do what you want?”
“If I did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.”
L: Lopen… never change.
A: And Sigzil’s reply is gold.
Kaladin grunted. “The fun part of running an army.”
“Exactly.”
“That was sarcasm, Sig.”
L: I have to admit… as someone who enjoys organization, I get Sigzil here.
Weighty Words
“I’m tired of having these here, drawing everyone’s eyes and making me sweat like a spy with too many spren.”
L: This is a great expression. You’ve got to admit, being a spy in Roshar would be insanely difficult, unless there’s some sort of training you can undergo to repress your emotions and hence not draw the spren to you…
A: I always get a kick out of in-world idioms, and especially when they’ve been begging to happen. We’ve seen a handful of times already when spren are inconvenient—letting someone know you’re embarrassed or what have you. “A spy with too many spren” is so perfect. And yes, I’m betting there’s a certain amount of training you can do to control your emotions. I’ll bet Jasnah knows how.
L: If anyone does, it’d definitely be Jasnah!
Meaningful Motivations
“I don’t mind if you want to be something like our unit’s ardent,” Kaladin said. “The men like you, Sig, and they put a lot of stock in what you have to say. But you should try to understand what they want out of life, and respect that, rather than projecting onto them what you think they should want out of life.”
L: There are a lot of reasons I love Kaladin, but this right here? This made me love him a million times more.
A: Okay, I have to do this:
Kaladin watched her go, then grunted softly.
Sigzil—without even thinking about it—mumbled, “Did your master teach you to be that insensitive?”
Kaladin eyed him.
“I have a suggestion, sir,” Sigzil continued. “Try to understand what people want out of life, and respect that, rather than projecting onto them what you think they should—”
“Shut it, Sig.”
“Yes, sir. Sorry, sir.”
BAHAHAHAHA! I so much adored Sigzil in that moment. Absolute perfection.
L: It is really funny to see him turn the tables on Kal here.
Quality Quotations
“Tryouts?” she said. “For real positions? Not just doing accounts? Storms, I’m in.”
A: Somewhere along the line, I remember someone saying they were surprised that Lyn accepted this so readily after Kal’s previous insulting offer and I have to say… for the chance to fly? To be a squire, and maybe someday a Radiant? I’d forgive a whole lot of unintentional insult for that opportunity!
L: Truth. Also, keep in mind that she’s talking to Kaladin Stormblessed. I’m willing to bet that most of the army reveres him. It’s pretty easy to forgive someone for a minor transgression when they’re your hero.
“Well, that wind blew past me years ago, sir.”
A: Just another nice idiom…
L: Next week, we’ll be going over two chapters—36 and 37, since 36 is rather short. As always, thank you for joining us (and putting up with my long-windedness). Please join us in the comments for more theorycrafting!
A: I’d like to take this opportunity to put in the “obligatory occasional reminder” PSA: we’re all here to discuss a book we love, but we all have differing viewpoints. Those differences are what make the discussion worth having, right? In that light, let’s all remember to neither give nor take personal offense at conflicting perspectives. This is a responsibility we all need to share to have a civil society, and it seems in short supply on much of social media. Let’s be better here, because y’all are friends and family!
L: Indeed. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn’t mean that they should be attacked for it. Remember Sig and Kal’s words in this very chapter and take them to heart, and let’s all respect one another. ::bridge four salute::
Alice is shocked at how quickly the summer is passing. Speaking of obligatory occasional reminders, how about that Storm Cellar group on Facebook?
Lyndsey is the 29th member of Bridge Four, not counting the honored fallen. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
“L: Interestingly, Hoid does seem to prefer tricking the nobility, doesn’t he? The only exception I can think of right now is his appearance in the original Mistborn trilogy, when he was tricking the rebellion.”
In Mistborn, he is dealing with rebels in one sense, but in another sense Kelsier and Vin are very much nobles. Mistings and Mistborn are marks of being direct descendants of the original nobles from TLR’s court.
As an accountant, this was one of my favorite chapters! I always had this fantasy of being an accountant in the FBI, carrying a gun and everything. I think Sigzil is something close to that.
Probably investiture straight from Odium. Remember, the Everstorm specifically chooses targets to destroy. And let’s not forget the battle at the end…
I would have enjoyed more time with Bridge Four in this book. These people are wonderful.
Word of Brandon:
Roshar, for instance, has a lot of different perspectives on homosexuality. In Iri, the more religious segment (who believe that life is about new experiences) would approve, while the more rigid modern, secular society has outlawed it.
In Azir, you’d find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given “social reassignment” so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men–even if he wasn’t actually transsexual.)
Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)
So the social reassignment custom is weird and skeevy for the reasons you give, but apparently not entirely unrealistic.
I think positive representation of any marginalized demographic is usually a good thing in itself, though it can be marred if those in-story treat it in a manner that clashes with other worldbuilding. We want to see people like ourselves in our stories. It may not be essential to the plot, but neither are plenty of other cultural and character traits in this story, as Lyn says.
Sigzil’s dream of going to an exam and being unable to read is so relatable. I’ve had countless dreams that I’m back at high school or college, facing final assignments at the end of a semester, and realize that I didn’t attend the class or didn’t do the homework. Though for him there’s also the fact that he’s in a place with a different language, which he has learned to speak but not write.
Kaladin is impressively calm and with-it in this chapter, displaying good leadership aside from the understandable misunderstanding about Lyn’s desired task. The tradition of fighting men and writing women is very newly being challenged.
The Drehy details are necessary for the “extra manly” joke, which is one of the better jokes in the book. In addition that particular sequences wrestles with issues of societal change which is a major theme in Kaladin’s storyline.
@3: …how does that even work? If a man who has sex with men is considered a woman, then wouldn’t his partner be a “woman” too? In which case, it’s now a lesbian relationship and they have to be reassigned as men.
@5: Yeah, this. I have no storming idea.
@2 Austin
I am unsure if it is still slated to be the plot, but it has been said in the past from Sanderson that the Era 3 Mistborn would take place with a misting clerk I think (nicrosil if I recall correctly), who gets pulled into a hunt for a serial killer mistborn. Then again I could be merging it with the earlier idea of a misting SWAT team hunting the serial killer mistborn. So you may get to read someone living your dream!
@5 necessary_eagle and @6 AeronaGreenjoy
I believe the function would be one individual would file for reassignment and be labeled a “woman” while the other individual would remain the same. I could see it functioning the way you mentioned if just engaging in the relationship in that society automatically termed you as the opposite sex, but if I understand things correctly, you have to actively file for the “status”. At least that is my assumption based on the information.
@3, 5, 6
In the Broadway musical Bombay Dreams, there was a character who was part of that caste of women who were assigned male at birth. Officially she was a woman and was treated as a woman in all ways so that it wasn’t “gay” for a man to sleep with her except that there was still stigma attached because humans will find ways to be terrible to each other. If Azir is using that system, then I imagine it would be just one of the two members of the couple who would “need” social reassignment documents. Thus making the other one “straight.”
Please don’t take any of the above as an endorsement of that way of doing things.
Yeah. I’m unsure if it means that Drehy or his partner would need to get reassigned in order to make their courtship (or just their marriage, if they marry?) official, or if Drehy would need to get reassigned before he was allowed to start courting men.
@9 AeronaGreenjoy
Hmmm, the implication to me from the quote of Sigzil is just to choose to court other men you would need to get reassigned. I am guessing, with nothing to back it up, that Azir leans more towards arranged marriages, so familial approval for courting would be part of it and potentially lessen “dating around”. However this leads to another issue, what if neither individual wishes to be the one to be “reassigned”? What would their recourse be then? And on top of that, if the individual got reassigned, but the courting ended, so they then wanted to court someone already reassigned to be a woman, do they have to get “reassigned” again so they could court that person? This would certainly explain Azir’s propensity for standing in lines lol.
One of us! One of us! Gooble gobble gooble gobble One of us! Live the dream Lyndsey. That is all.
I read the books before I knew Lyn was a “tuckerization” (new word for me). Lyn is such a great character I was actually disappointed to learn this, because that meant she would probably be staying a minor character. I really wanted MORE Lyn. I am happy for Real Lyn and all the fans, though. And having really cool minor characters does add to the depth of the books.
@2: When things don’t add up, there is only one person can bring the criminals to account: Austin, FBI Accountant Just like the books must be balanced, so too must the scales of Justice. *tapping of adding machine,followed by click of a readying gun*
If that were a tv series, I’d watch it!
Why does reassignment have to be to a binary gender?
The Azish exam system is of course modeled on the old Chinese system. In theory anyone could take the exams, but only wealthy people could afford to study for them.
Does Sigzil maybe represent Sanderson’s feelings about his early, unpublished writing (which he has made clear he doesn’t like now), as Hoid’s not-very-skilled-yet apprentice storyteller?
Lyn, actually tobacco is one of the hardest addictions to break.
Just checking: the eyes of Squires Radiant don’t turn light, do they? It requires the actual Nahel Bond?
@austin knows this, but seemingly not everyone: for decades any FBI recruit had to have either a law or accounting degree. (This is no longer the case.)
Not much to comment upon this chapter. IMO, it was a rather nicely done world building info dump. We learn how certain countries (Alethkar and Azir) address something that RL has is dealing with. (Thank you AeronaGreenjoy @3 for the WoB) In this case homosexuality.
It is interesting that both cultures seem excepting of it, except that as long as one fills out the necessary paperwork in Azir. The filling out of paperwork is not a reflection of what Azir society feels about homosexuality. Rather it is a aspect of the cultural need to bueracraticize everything. Heck, this the country where we learn awoken Singers are trying to petition the government to address their grievances. I would love to be a fly on the wall when somebody tells Odium that the awoken Singers in Azir are not fighting. They are filing petitions. Death by 100,000 papercuts.
Ironic that Kaladin, who sees everything action that a lighteye takes as a slight against a darkeye, is so beholden to the differences between sexes. Even when he does not understand the differences from the perspective of the lighteyes. (Recall, in WoR he was amazed that Janet could be the master of the horse stables). I am glad that someone was quickly able to call Kaladin out on that. And that Kaladin realized he was a hypocrite.
Sig is the perfect quartermaster and chief of staff.
I wonder how and why Hoid decided to take Sig on as an apprentice.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@12, 14 – Not to confuse anyone, but I’m not a FBI agent lol. I said I had a fantasy to be one. I actually took the first step several years ago, which was to take an exam at a testing center. I did so and instantly failed. And I literally mean instantly failed. I stepped out of the exam room, collected my phone, and saw an email from the FBI that I did not pass. I have no idea what they were looking for lol. They gave you scenarios and you had to pick one of the following answers: Always, Often, Sometimes, Rarely, Never. I was so looking forward to 3 months at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA…
Nightheron @12:
These were exactly my feelings when I learned that Lyn was a cameo of a real person. Particularly since she is one of the few recurring female tertiary characters who might evolve into a Radiant. But since then I have read annotations on his website and learned that Sanderson is not averse to giving tuckerized characters quite substantial parts, if he feels that it fits the narrative, so there is no real limitation because of it. In fact, Skar is also a tuckerization and he gets quite a bit limelight in the upcoming chapters…
Having said this – I did feel that introduction of women among the Windrunner squires felt somewhat contrived – but only because there already should have been women serving as support stuff with the former bridgemen. Sigzil very properly asks here about the many practical aspects of the bridgemen’s new situation going forward – but the fact is that at least some of this stuff should have been already decided back in early WoR and it is kinda mind-boggling that we are asked to assume that the 1000-men regiment was functioning without any kind of administrative structure.
AndrewHB @15 I was wondering the same thing! Hoid, being who he is, to take on an apprentice like Sig. Who was Sig before this? We know he is firmly of the Azir with his devotion to paperwork, but was he part of the higher echelon or a nobody before he met Hoid? He is pretty bad at storytelling…. I do like the way he called Kaladin on his hypocrisy, made me LOL and I can imagine a chagrined look on Kaladin’s face at the take down! LOL!! Yay to Lyn!! How exciting to be a part of the story!
I will say that the voice actor from the GraphicAudio version of Oathbringer is a very good match for the character.
@13 Birgit
I agree. While the WoB AeronaGreenjoy cites says it is based on medieval India, there is no reason that the social reassignment could not just be from “straight” to “gay”.
@14 Carl
I kept going back to cigarettes myself till one day I took a drag and something about it left such a horrible taste in my mouth I never went back. Coming up on my 9th year since I quit.
Hmmm, I feel like squires wouldn’t have their eyes turned light only because I do not recall it being mentioned regarding Kaladin till he hit the 3rd ideal. So my assumption is if a bonded radiant doesn’t get light eyes till later in their progression, then a squire probably wouldn’t if they are at just barely the beginning of radiancy.
@15 AndrewHB
Agree on all points
I just assumed the Azish reassignment thing was about declaring orientation. Probably to make sure their marriage forms have proper genders marked and the records of potentially fertile couples are accurate.
This bit of representation helps show just how unfamiliar Sigzil is with Alethi society and reinforces the idea that the Azish have forms for everything.* Especially since it’s presented without the WoB that it’s based on some real world cultures. It’s not representation for representation sake alone but to do a neat little bit of characterization and worldbuilding.
*The temptation to write a fic detailing the coming out process according to the Azish bureaucracy is strong.
Re: the “Lyn” character – So an actual member of Bridge 4 can read and write … have we seen any coonsequences of this specifically, in OB? I can’t remember, but it’s been a while. Having more literate characters among the crew seems like it would make a difference, especially in relation to Dalinar’s musings near the end of the book.
Re: “Everstorm” – So if it’s so regular in its timing … it keeps going and going … was it (partly) named for the Eveready Energizer bunny? (So sorry – had to ask…)
Reassignment of orientation would make a lot more sense than reassignment of nominal gender (for cis people). Still imperfect, for bisexual or fluid-orientation people, but better.
It may be facetious on your parts, but insisting that redemption is off the table for Moash is a philosophical line that I find it very troubling for people to cross so readily. I had a big old wall of text about redemption prepared, but opted not to post it in favor of simply encouraging people to remember that redemption is not something that you accomplish for yourself, rather it is an act of mercy from the Arbiter of what is right and wrong wherein your crimes are remitted and no longer held against you, despite what you actually deserve. Moash could be the ultimate big-bad-evil-guy of the SA and still be redeemed in his final moments, even after being responsible for the genocide of entire nations and the specific murders of any number of beloved characters. Meanwhile, a random throwaway side character who casually insulted somebody without thinking of the harm he was doing before going on to live a long and noble life without ever repenting for that act may well die unredeemed.
@24 There are probably different forms for bi/pan people and ace/aro people as well. One the one hand, this all sound ridiculously intrusive; on the other hand it seems liberating that all things might be permitted and accepted so long as one has filled out the proper forms.
Assuming anyone survives and ultimately gets along after everything happens, Roshar could potentially be very progressive on many fronts. Parshendi have male, female and the asexual malen and femalen. The Sleepers breed their cremlings to be used for certain tasks. Cremlings as far as I know do not divide asexually like cellular reproduction nor break off and grow into a separate entity like starfish, so I would assume the cremlings that make up a Sleeper are some male and some female thereby the Sleeper itself would be gender fluid. Finally given not only the different races present on Roshar, as well as light eyes and dark eyes, but entirely different species, then a unified culture on that planet could be very enlightened in the treatment of all of the above. Again, that is assuming everyone survives the desolation and ultimately chooses to get along.
@13 because Azir like ancient India has not displaced gender from sex. There are two different biological parts so their are two genders. This of course doesn’t mean there should be defined roles for each gender/sex. In this model gender/sex is about the parts you have and nothing else – it is completely separate from how you act and your place in society.
Hey Lyn, just wondering, I also tattooed the bridge four glyph in my upper arm, as a cover up for an older tattoo, also for various reasons, any way to compare?
Best regards.
@25, at least in my case it is being facestious. I have… a long-standing problem with cheering for the anti-hero and hoping for their eventual redemption (see: Agent Ward in SHIELD) so if Sanderson does manage to give Moash a satisfying heel-turn, I’ll almost certainly be solidly in his corner. I joke about how much I despise him now, but hell – I despised Jaime Lannister, too, and now he’s my favorite.
@29, this picture was taken immediately after it was finished several years ago (it’s faded a little since then), but here ya go. https://imgur.com/a/Fgt89h3
@30 ok cool u got the shoulder patch, i got the raw glyph… slightly modified to cover all of the previous tattoo.
https://imgur.com/a/X9NL7y3?
@25 Porphyrogenitus
Redemption isn’t the most important thing. It’s better to do right because it’s right, knowing that you can’t change the past but embracing the good you can do in the present.
The side character who lives a long, noble life is doing good regardless of whether or not they are “redeemed”, while the Big Bad who commits genocide is still a mass murderer whether or not he repents on his deathbed.
Dalinar understands this when says the most important step is the next one. That’s all we can control. We would probably be better off if we stopped worrying about redemption and did as much good as we can with the time that we have.
Oh, I love that @Angel! Beautiful work!
Porphyrogenitus @25 said “redemption is not something that you accomplish for yourself, rather it is an act of mercy from the Arbiter of what is right and wrong wherein your crimes are remitted and no longer held against you, despite what you actually deserve.”
Be careful not to apply your RL beliefs to a fictional word their may or may not be an Almighty Being who grants redemption to the sapien beings (human, Seeker/Listener, and any other). To my knowledge there is no Almighty Being within Cosmere who would provide such redemption to sapien beings.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Lyn the character rocks; how cool to be included in the book that way! This chapter is great. I am also an accountant by profession (recently turned SAHM) and nothing makes me happier than learning all the little details.
In Azir, I assumed bi people could just re-file forms if one courtship didn’t work out and they went on to court someone of a different sex. As far as we know, the Azish are monogamous so I would think ultimately being bi wouldn’t matter so much after you found your mate. The only bad thing about including these cultural details is that it makes you curious for more.
Andrew HB @@@@@ 15
ROFLOL
#21, @Scáth
Kaladin’s eyes went blue with the Third Oath, right, when he/Syl manifested a Shardblade. And regular Shardbearers also get light eyes, though it takes longer. Lopen’s eyes are presumably still dark.
There’s a very strong theme of redemption running through Oathbringer. It’s made very clear that the heinousness of one’s deeds is not a barrier to redemption: Dalinar, in his youth, did far worse things than Moash has.
In the Stormlight Archive, redemption is possible for anyone so long as they take responsibility for their actions, repent and recognize why they were wrong, and sincerely seek to do better. Moash’s journey in the book is an effective parallel to Kaladin’s (in the previous book) and to Dalinar’s. At several different times he feels regret for his actions, and appears to be punishing himself for them (deliberately sentencing himself to hard labour when he could do lighter work). But that regret never leads him to take the step of taking genuine responsibility for them or making a change; in the absence of true repentance, penance is meaningless.
Continually, Moash makes excuses to himself: Elhokar deserved it; this is what the world is like; anyone else would have done the same; I’ no worse than other people. (Rather like Kaladin midway through Words of Radiance, when he’s lost Syl, realizes the assassination plot is wrong, but keeps trying to justify it to himself or tell himself there’s nothing he can do.) In some ways, he tries to do for the newly-awakened Singers what Kaladin did for the bridgemen, defending and supporting them. But because his motives are all wrong and he hasn’t sincerely grappled with his guilt, these attempts don’t stop his journey from continually taking him to darker places. This contrasts with both Kaladin and Dalinar, who acknowledge that they acted wrongly and make a deliberate change.
I find Moash’s chapters genuinely tragic, as the story of a man who knows on some level that he’s walking ever-deeper into darkness but can’t bring himself to actively acknowledge that and turn back. I don’t hate or even dislike him; I deeply pity him.
birgit @@@@@13 – I suppose it doesn’t have to be binary; the text here doesn’t specify, and I don’t recall that it’s ever discussed again. I was probably influenced by the beta discussion on the subject, which centered around the customs referenced in the WoB that AeronaGreenjoy quoted @@@@@3. We don’t know what Brandon has in mind, or if he intends to be more specific than that or not.
Porphyrogenitus @@@@@25 – I don’t want to derail this chapter into a Moash debate; he’s got a POV chapter coming soon enough where we’ll have LOTS of chance to do that. For now, I’ll just say that I have every reason to believe that Sanderson will give Moash a redemption story, but at this point on a purely emotional level, I don’t want him to. But this chapter is about people who are still in Bridge Four, so that’s enough about Moash.
@@@@@ several re: Lyn – maybe she can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think I recall Brandon saying something about wanting to put in the scout storyline and needing a name, and then remembering that he already had a perfectly good scout with a name that would fit right in. And so, Lyn-the-scout-cameo became Lyn-the-recurring-side-character, and we were all happy. :D
I would have to partially disagree about there being a ‘Rosharan Patriarchy’.
Dahlinar makes an excellent point when he thinks ‘We took the Shardblades from the women and they seized literacy from us. Who got the better deal, I wonder?’. And Hoid mentions that it was a woman who literally wrote the book on what the gender norms in Alethi culture should be and generally involves getting sweaty and hitting things with a stick for men and all of the fun things like music, art, and reading for women. Men might be the figureheads and military leaders, but women utterly control the bureaucracy and determine a massive portion of the culture. Literacy has always been a greater power than any sword and the fact that armies need women to accompany them as scribes, but the women do not require men to run the government in anything but name, says a lot about where the real power actually lies.
@38 KatherineMW
I agree completely! I have more thoughts, but as Wetlandernw recommends, I’ll wait until the Moash chapter.
@40 Capn_Boxers
I agree that women occupy important and valued places in the bureaucracy and government of Roshar.
Looking at the Alethi in particular, though, literacy is not a greater power than any sword. That seems to be true among the bureaucracy-loving Azir, where fitness for government office is determined by written examinations. Alethi rulers face different tests, such as commanding armies and murdering anyone who wants their land.
Men require women to perform the essential, bureaucratic work of running government and society. Women require men to provide the violence that is an essential part of running a state, especially when that state is surrounded by predatory neighbors. “Real power” is complicated and takes many forms, but one of those forms is the power to kill anyone who defies your orders. Women don’t usually have that kind of power in Alethkar.
@40 Capn Boxers: I would say that there is a patriarchy, even though it is not one where the men control everything, and women do have important powers, Finances are considered a masculine art, so men control the money. Women are often scribes only because they scribe for their husbands. Most women in society can’t even read, but still need to work for a living, so they put on a glove so they can manage menial tasks, but are barred still from doing most two-handed occupations. Though upper class women are certainly living in progressive times for them, with their exciting breakthroughs in engineering and fabrials.
@37 Carl
I have a feeling we will definitely be told when Lopen gets light eyes because he will probably be wielding the blade everywhere and making light eyed herdazian jokes. “What do you get when you make a herdazian light eyed? An intelligent gancho.” lol
@40 Capn Boxers
Personally I fall more into Jasnah’s camp. It does not matter who “got the better deal” in the end if people are still being forced into certain roles regardless their own personal inclinations. Dalinar can think all he wants that women got it better by getting literacy, but that won’t change that Lyn (the character) desires to fight or Renarin might have been happier if he didn’t feel the societal pressure that he is a failure for not being a warrior. I personally think the best deal would be like Jasnah said, them being able to choose.
@38
“in the absence of repentance, penance is meaningless”
…Damn. (Can I say that here?)
Kinda got chills reading that line. Totally behind you there.
@44, scath; Thank you for bringing up Jasnah’s book. The quote from it shows that there is a division of power and expectations in the Alethi society. While it does not mirror RL Western cultures – there is still an imbalance. When one is limited in the role you can chose due to the sex organ between your legs – that’s a loss of power. See: Renarin for a male example.
Dalinar’s flash back where he’s going battle mad and thinks “Why shouldn’t the strongest swordsman rule” or something to that effect – shows a very unhealthy approach to leadership. Yet it is one the Alethi have fallen into overall. I’m non-active SCA member. Some “strongest swordsmen” have made really piss poor Kings / leaders. Some of our amazing leaders have come from non-combat areas, but due to the SCA system, those leaders will never be Royal, unless some strong swordsman fights on their behalf. In the SCA the stakes are a game, so pretty low. Taken to full scale in a society? The world building thought scares me.
Sigzil is a man after my own heart here. I hope Queen Jasnah brings on some Azish type reforms.
Moash: … nope I’ll save it. I’m not saying F**k him anymore, but I’m resistant to a full redemption arch.
Tobaco: Lyn, it’s a highly addictive drug. It just is also a legal one, that doesn’t make you “high”, so it’s socially acceptable. (Or used to be, now it’s a mix bag.) My parents have quit smoking several times, to go back to it. The changes they have made in the last 10 years is to one, not smoke in the house, and two, buy the knock off brands. Taxes made their preferred band too much.
@Alice: your friend:
I’m… floored. Brandon throws in extra details all the time. It’s better storytelling to include details that don’t directly impact the plot. It’s better world building to have the characters be different people. Bridge 4 is not just a bunch of spear carriers who’s only job is to walk on stage yell “Yeah Kaladin!” then walk off. You avoid flat characters by including details that make characters 3D characters. Like in a mystery book, we learn lots of things about all the characters. If only the murderer is given weight – everyone knows “Well Mr. X did it, since he’s the only one we know anything about.”
I was happy to have Drehy confirmed as gay. In my world, in a large group of people, a percentage is going to be homosexual / bi/ ace. I feared later in part 3 that people would cry “Sanderson killed his only gay character!” But I’ve not see that. Plus, it seemed like Drehy might have said the 2nd or 3rd oath by the end. At least, I hope he has a spren.
I’m just happy that TOR/my android tablet is finally allowing me to see and read the comments again!
Anyway, I like seeing the inclusion of characters that are non-WASP males. However, that does not mean that readers accept those differences. I remember comments I saw about the Hunger Games movie with one of the characters being a black girl/young woman. She was OBVIOUSLY black in the book but some folks were outraged that she was a black woman in the movie.
I would bet when/if they make the Stormlight Archive movie there will be complaints about the Alethi looking Asian.
KatherineMW @38 – Hold that thought. We need to repeat this when we get to the Moash chapter… (In other words, I agree with you, but I’m biting my tongue to not go there yet. :D )
@46 I’m a fellow former SCA person. A lot of people I know still haven’t gotten out, so I got to hear a lot of people being angry about a set of new royals out west who commissioned outfits covered in swastikas and 88s to wear to their coronation. Really drives home the lesson that “best at sword fighting” and “best leader” are very different things.
@assorted the squires definitely aren’t light eyed (unless they’ve got any naturally light eyed members by this time) because Kaladin’s eyes fade back to dark if Syl doesn’t become a blade for a while. So definitely only people with blades would show a change of eye.
soursavior @49, not at this moment, but they will in two weeks time, at least a hopeful-to-become-a-squire – Captain Colot :) (Checked the book, no way I remembered his name.)
But that’s just a tidbit, not contradicting anything you or anyone else said as I also remember how Teft first noticed Kal’s eyes turning blue after the battle of Narak when he had summoned Sylblade.
Ed: Totally agree with scath – I don’t believe for a second The Lopen would let getting himself light eyes slip by unnoticed.
I had a vague recollection, hence the disclaimer. Thanks for looking it up. (I’m not with the book at the moment.)
Hmmm makes me wonder the day Lopen gets to manifest a shardblade, what shape he will have it take. Perhaps a giant club in the shape of a hand giving the middle finger? lol (or whatever is the analogue on Roshar for that gesture lol)
One of my personal favorite chapters!! I’ve been looking forward to the chapter review on this one! :)
Loved reading this chapter and the review, keep up the good work, Lyn and Alice!
My thoughts on Drehy:
1 – I am glad he exists and is gay.
2 – it is shitty that he got outed while offscreen. He basically never gets to own his sexuality.
3 – Because Sigzil doesn’t actually explain what he means by “social reassignment”, my reaction was to immediately think of either ghettos or reversion therapy, which extremely soured me on the chapter as a whole. I acknowledge that this was not the intended meaning and may not be the interpretation of many or most, but it was where my mind went and it was an extremely unpleasant association.
As a real life believer of redemption I have to add in this caveat. “Many who plan to seek God at the 11th hour die at 10:30”
SunDriedRainbow @@@@@ 54
In more ways than one, you are right. But I also understand why it has to be offscreen. If it was onscreen, it will at least be half a chapter! Brandon has to flesh out Drehy’s love interest so that he will be 3-D in the eyes of the readers. If Sanderson does not do it, there will be many who will feel cheated. I believe this is the best way. After all, Oathbringer is almost maxed out in number of pages allowed by the printing machine. So, even if Brandon wants to write that scene of Drehy coming out as gay, his editor and his printer cannot not allow it. I’ll just assume that Brandon wrote it but was left out in the cutting room.
I’m sorry that you feel that way. It has to be more than annoying. I for one did not see it as bad. My thoughts went immediately to Syl saying that sprens have 4 sexes. And the listeners apparently have 4 also. Based on the logic of the book, my first reaction was laughter for several reasons:
(1) There will be discussions here and everywhere Sanderson fans congregate on what are the two extra sexes
(2) Poor Sigzil. It is hard to be the only bureaucrat around. No one understands how hard it was for him. Sometimes I feel as if Sigzil is OCD.
(3) I immediately wondered who will get married first. Drehy and his boyfriend or Adolin and Shallan. I was hoping to get a glimpse of both, but as it turned out, I did not see both.
Hopefully, we will see a glimpse of Drehy’s boyfriend in one of the books.
Sheiglagh @57 – we do catch just a glimpse of Dru near the end of the book, in the healers tents just before Lopen levels up.
Drehy was never in a closet. We the readers didn’t know his sexual preference, but there’s no evidence he had any reason to conceal it in-world (that I remember).
Sorry to kinda double post, but I wanted to touch one more thing –
“While it’s important to have literature that deals with the prejudice and violence that the LGBTQIA community has to endure, it’s also nice to see a society that just doesn’t care. Whoever you are, is who you are.” (emphasis mine)
Lyndsey, I know what you meant by this, and honestly it slid past me the first time too, but upon further reflection, Alethi society (or, more accurately, Vorin society) is extremely transphobic. The only way for people to express themselves across gender norms is to literally sell themselves into slavery – the ardentia.
So yes, Kaladin has no issue with Drehy being gay, and more importantly, doesn’t have to express that he has no issue – he’s not acting counter to culture and making a point of it, he’s simply exhibiting an aspect of culture. That’s good!
But you can’t say “the society doesn’t care if you’re LGBTQIA” because transphobia is baked in to a degree that baffles my adverbial vocabulary. I realize it’s a fine, and nearly semantic, point, but I think it’s important to point out, even as we acknowledge the growth Mr. Sanderson is showing with his portrayal of Drehy.
edited to add: I suppose the other option is to become Radiant and therefore transcend societal boundaries, like Shallan does in her Bladewielding, and Lyn herself does in becoming a Windrunner squire.
The Alethi don’t seem to care about sexual orientation, but very much care about gender roles. I think Kaladin mistakes the two in a later chapter, assuming Drehy should be sympathetic to Renarain learning to read– considered a womanly art– because Drehy is gay. Kaladin gets called on it by his men and apologizes. One of the men though makes the claim that it is “extra manly”, which is also confusing sexual orientation with gender role. That whole gender role thing is deeply ingrained in Vorin culture.
We already know the 4 genders of the parsh: male, female, malen, femalen. Old spren have the same 4 genders because they were imagined by parsh before humans came to Roshar.
Random thoughts on chapter:
We get hints at Sigzil’s backstory, but major stuff gets left out. What was the trouble that Hoid bailed him out of? And how did Sig then end up a slave? Should I be worried about the inexplicable coincidences of Sigzil Apprentice To Hoid ending up in Bridge 4 with potential Knight Radiant Kaladin? r was that just serendipity? (I generously apply the Willing Suspension Of Disbelief to coincidence when reading fiction, but I am losing track of whether or not I should be applying it in some cases.)
Loved the exchange between Kaladin, Lyn, and Sigzil, with Kaladin’s incorrect assumptions, Lyn’s corrections, and Sigzil hilariously throwing Kaladin’s advice right back at him. Kaladin gets credit for working at “being better” when he is wrong. Sigzil feels so strongly about Kaladin’s insensitivity he wants to punch him in the face. Sigzil seems like the mild mannered clerk, but his strong sense of justice and desire to be first in the sky speaks to why he is Windrunner material.
This book brings up multiple times Kaladin’s inability to keep the tattoo or lose the scars. I suppose it keeps coming up because this is a theme we must be making some headway on. I wonder if by the end of the book he could keep the tattoo if he got one, because his thinking about Bridge 4 will change. Scars seem another matter, though.
#60, @SunDriedRainbow:
That’s confused.You seem to be saying that because Vorinism is not perfectly “woke” according to your standards, Sanderson is retrograde. The Ardentia match up relatively well with the “third sex” ideas of certain Asian, Polynesian, and native American cultures–are you saying that he needs to “progress” beyond realistically describing human cultures?
SunDriedRainbow @@@@@ 60 – Pardon my ignorance, what is transphobic?
@54 SunDriedRainbow
I am with Carl on this. Coming out is typically announcing it to people who do not know and or in a climate that is unfortunately adverse to it. Kaladin was not surprised about Drehy, and Sigzil only brought it up because he felt it would affect the logistics. I believe he brought it up in the same breath as a heterosexual couple and the issues with assigning them private boarding. So I took it to mean it was already widely known and accepted that Drehy is gay, just it had not come up before because it did not affect anything regarding the functioning of the unit. Now that the unit has a new place in the world, and new status, Sigzil applied his own country’s views and cultural mores. This then allowed the narrative to relate the various manifestations and differences between the cultures.
@60 SunDriedRainbow
That is an interesting point. One assumes at that stage of technology, Roshar does not have the capabilities to provide sex reassignment surgery. So the individual would not only feel trapped in their body, but also the role society forces upon them (men fighting, women scholar). Though interesting tidbit, it has been confirmed via WoB that if you were to use gold healing (mistborn), stormlight healing from being a radiant, or receive the regrowth surge, you could heal to the sex that matches your identity (hopefully I am using the correct terminology and do not offend anyone). So an individual could receive sex reassignment surgery, and when they heal, they would remain the sex they reassigned to because that is the sex they perceive themselves to truly be and would be made manifest. So an option for individuals in Roshar would be to get sex reassignment surgery (assuming it would exist at that time), and then have a radiant or fabrial use regrowth on the individual as they heal afterwards. However societies on Roshar (Azir for instance) would still need to evolve and change due to such cultural mores as social reassignment being limiting in scope. I think it will be interesting to watch the cultures evolve as Roshar changes. For instance Survivorism has ended up somewhat homophobic vs the other religions on Scadriel. Sanderson has commented that one of their central tenants is surviving, and perpetuation of the species, so that religion looks on homosexuality as a negative because it does not produce offspring. I think what Sanderson is trying to do, is to show us how such cultural mores can come to arise in various societies and religions, and also show how people try to deal with them, fight against them, or perpetuate them.
@61 nightheron
Well said
@65 sheiglagh
So knowing I can not adequately speak on the subject because my knowledge is still limited, I will answer to the best of my ability and hope I do not offend anyone. A transgender individual is an individuals who’s core sense of sexual identity (and I use sex, not gender), does not match the physical body they were born into. As all individuals are unique, some transgender individuals take actions in various ways to help themselves become the true self they can be. One such action is sex reassignment surgery. Just like homophobia is fear or prejudice towards individuals whose sexual orientation aligns with the same sex, so too transphobia is a fear or prejudice towards individuals whose sexual identity does not match their physical one.
Nightheron @63:
IMHO, it is strongly implied that Hoid somehow placed Sigzil according to his hunches about the future that he wants to bring about. Certainly it became clear in this chapter that Sigzil never truly was Hoid’s apprentice, nor did he deserve the title of full Worldsinger (assuming that this organization exists as more than convenient fiction) that his master so blithely bestowed on him. And yes, I am curious about his personal history.
I also very much hope that some of Kaladin’s squires don’t necessarily become Windrunners, but might eventually join other Orders instead, to which they appear more suited. Sigzil is a shoo-in for an Elsecaller, IMHO, and I hope that he’ll get the chance to escape the limits imposed on him by the prejudices of the Alethi. And also, it would be sad if joining an Order would turn out to be so much of a luck of the draw concerning which Radiant you have met and managed to attach yourself to, instead of which spren you would be best suited for. I really hope that the pastry chef scholar will arrive to become Jasnah’s squire and to provide an example to people like Renarin and Sigzil.
Not to mention that Bridge 4 being the best characterized group of minor characters could provide us with secondary Radiants which are at least somewhat fleshed-out, as opposed to coming completely out of the left field, like new female Radiants will have to be, seeing that there are far fewer recurring minor female characters than male ones.
I have also thought some more about the bridgemen force lacking any female support staff until this moment and it seems the more implausible, the more I think about it. After all, the Kholin soldiers killed at the Tower would have left behind many dependants who’d need to support themselves somehow and who would also honor Bridge 4 and by extension the rest of bridgemen. You’d think that they’d have been working with Kaladin’s force since early WoR.
Oh, and isn’t it maddening that Kaladin _still_ didn’t fess up about what Moash has done and that he had a number of co-conspirators? I was certainly greatly annoyed during my first read. Yes, it seems that events kinda rendered this serious lapse of his irrelevant, but given that these people were Diagrammists, and that some of them could still easily be around – we didn’t hear what happened to Danlan and the other man present during the meeting, did we? – not really.
I am also ruminating about what the future prospects of female messengers/scouts would normally be – IIRC, it is a job for young women. They couldn’t graduate into soldiers, so – eventual marriage to NCOs? To merchants? It is also really odd that we didn’t see light-eyed boys of low dahns being runners and messengers, given that iRL it often was a way for young gentlemen to get some experience and learn how the army worked. And again, a number of soldiers had families in the camps and soldiering would be a pretty much hereditary occupation for low-status light-eyes if RL history is any guide…
@67 Isilel
If I recall correctly the wives of the officers after the Tower ended up either returning home, helping in other clerical duties, or did in fact help Kaladin’s men for a bit. It was commented on how for some of them it was hard because they would be serving the same places where their husbands used to live, and working with men who would be replacing the husbands they lost. I think it was also commented on how Dalinar offered stipends and let the women leave, but some chose to remain on despite the pain of the reminders in honor of their deceased loved ones.
I find it interesting, and slightly disturbing, to see people equate an author with the societies they write. I recently read a book which was entirely set in a society where slavery was pervasive, and maintained by both brute force and magic. Should I therefore assume that the author is in favor of people owning sex slaves and beating them mercilessly for the fun of it? I wouldn’t expect so. I assume that she thinks slavery (including all the kinds she wrote) are actually horrible, but I’m not going to bother searching her old tweets to find evidence either way. I simply assume that’s the setting she chose for her protagonist’s background and the society where he functions because that’s what works for the story she’s telling.
In much the same way, I find it problematic that someone would assume that because we haven’t seen a Rosharan society that is fully accepting of that individual’s particular views, Sanderson is somehow “on probation” until he creates such a thing. I see a multitude of problems with this, but I’m only going to mention two.
1) Not everyone agrees on what an “ideal society” looks like. That really doesn’t need much more explanation, does it? You don’t get to define other people’s ideals – including the author.
2) Sanderson writes realistic people. They’re broken, they’re short-sighted, their views are shaped by their upbringing and experience. Realistic characters form realistic societies – societies that are also broken, short-sighted, and shaped by their history. Why on earth (or Roshar, Scadrial, Sel, etc.) would you expect an ideal society in a quality work of fiction? (It would be the social equivalent of a Mary Sue, wouldn’t it?) And seriously, we’ve talked about so many ways the Alethi society is weird by our standards; why should you expect it’s going to somehow be made perfect by agreeing with you in this one area? Not a single one of these cultures is intended to be “ideal” – by anyone’s standards. Like real life, every culture on Roshar has its positive, negative, and amusing quirks.
@69 Alice – Attuned to the Rhythm of Appreciation for your level-headed thoughts. :-)
All of our discussions here underscore one thing: that Brandon has created worlds and characters that are so very, very real to us that we have the same hopes and dreams for them as we have for the real world. How wonderful!
@38:
“As the story of a man who knows on some level that he’s walking ever-deeper into darkness but can’t bring himself to actively acknowledge that and turn back,” that makes Moash even more of a tool. He’s had chance after chance after chance. I don’t want him to be redeemed, I want Kaladin to run Syl through his chest.
RE: Drehy being gay
I haven’t had time to go back and look at them, but I’m pretty sure this was either stated or implied back in Words of Radiance.
@71 Gaz
Moash is a murderer and a servant of Odium. So was Dalinar. Both of them had plenty of chances to turn their lives around. Dalinar threw away countless opportunities until he finally took one.
Dalinar was a murder addict, a warlord, and the murderer of an entire city. What has Moash done that’s worse than Dalinar’s crimes?
I just want you all to know how hard I’m biting my tongue to avoid jumping into the Moash debate. I have strong feelings on this subject – which I shall save at least until we get to the first of his POV chapters.
@73: For some fans it’s the order the information is presented.
Yes, Dalinar killed. Oh boy did he kill. Countless – faceless- people. We as a fandom, have no connection to them. It’s easier to ignore / not think about. Because we were presented with the honorable Dalinar of the last 5 years FIRST. Not the monster.
There are a few Writing Excuses podcast that cover this issue with charcters.
Moash, we are presented with the friend first, who Then betrays one of the best loved characters. By killing the guy he was trying to protect at the moment Elk was going to achieve something rare and beautiful.
Who then moves on to killing a man just because he was told to, while feeling nothing.
It upsets many to see this happen.
Dalinar’s crimes are more abstract for many. I feel Very different about Dalinar now, but it’s more connected to him as a father. Again, his mass murder is abstract.
Robert Jordan was mad at fandom for not being sad / upset when an entire culture committed suicide in the Wheel of Time. Yet he’d never showed us the place. Fandom was not Invested in the place. We saw it as too abstract to get upset. Some of the same is going on here with the reactions to Dalinar vs. Moash killings.
@73 – Dalinar has unwillingly been groomed by Odium to be his instrument since he was a teenager. He wasn’t addicted to murder, he was addicted to The Thrill, one of the actual Unmade, utilized by Odium to control and groom Dalinar. He never had a chance. Remove these influences, and Dalinar is still a war general because of Alethi culture, but its unlikely he commits the atrocities he actually did.
What opportunities did Dalinar throw away before he finally went to the Nightwatcher and ended up getting pruned by Cultivation? He was addicted to the Thrill, and because he saw what the Thrill was doing to him and what he’d done under the Thrill, he turned to drink. He was trying to get away from it.
Moash willingly turns to the Listeners, willingly kills Elhokar, willingly takes the sword to kill Jezrien. He is under no influence of the Thrill. Odium is not interested in him. Yet he ends up doing what he did.
Given the choice, to accept responsibility for his actions or to become Odium’s servant and let Odium take control, Moash lets Odium take control. Dalinar, whos been under Odium’s thumb his whole life, accepts responsibility.
One of these men is not like the other.
@75 – For me, having someone’s dark past presented in flashback is just as bad as seeing it happen in the current timeline. The issue isn’t the order in which the information is presented, it’s that one person takes responsibility for his own actions and the other doesn’t.
So I just re-read the article and I came across this part again
“All right, then what’s our chain of command? Do we obey King Elhokar? Are we still his subjects? And what dahn or nahn are we in society? … Who pays the wages of Bridge Four? What about the other bridge crews? If there is a squabble over Dalinar’s lands in Alethkar, can he call you—and Bridge Four—up to fight for him, like a normal liege-vassal relationship? If not, then can we still expect him to pay us?”
I realized that Elhokar’s idea about king and high king does solve just about all these issues. The Radiant’s chain of command is Dalinar as High King under his authority and in regards to all things Urithiru and Voidbringer. Which means if Voidbringers show up on Elhokar’s lands, the Radiants only need to follow Dalinar’s orders directly in response to the Voidbringers, but can in no way take action regarding the actual governance and law enforcement of the lands themselves. The Radiants are only Elhokar’s subjects if they choose to reside on land within Elhokar’s kingdom. They must then obey the laws of that kingdom, and be held accountable to its punishments. As the Radiants are now outside the standard Alethi structure, and would then be under Dalinar, then their nahn and dahn would be immaterial. They are Radiant of a certain order and each order has its own command structure. Dalinar as High King once they establish an economy of moving through Urithiru to reach other parts of Roshar would provide the wages for Bridge Four and other Radiants. As per Elhokar’s and Dalinar’s agreement, Dalinar wouldn’t hold any lands in Alethkar for there to be squabbles over, though Dalinar could call the Radiants to fight for him. Kaladin owning land in Alethkar would be enforceable by the King and regarding its specific governance by Kaladin, would be answerable to that King. Dalinar would not be allowed to interfere. So although Elhokar did not exactly go about it the best of ways, what he did by recognizing Dalinar as “High King” is something that actually really needed to happen and was a step in the right direction as King.
@75 Braid_Tug
I agree that there’s something inherent in human nature which makes us care more about the names and faces we know. We also have a strong tendency to stand by our feelings in the face of evidence.
These qualities are part of who we are, and I don’t think we can change them. But we can and should push back against them. We can remind ourselves that right and wrong aren’t exclusively determined by our feelings. One death is a tragedy; a million deaths are a million tragedies, even if our brains keep trying to turn it into a statistic.
@76 Gaz
There was nothing “unwilling” about Dalinar’s decision to be a brutal warlord. Every Alethi soldier is capable of experiencing the Thrill, but all of them don’t seek it out constantly, preferring murder to all other activities.
Gavilar was an Alethi male of Dalinar’s social class, and he didn’t become a Thrill addict constantly seeking another high. He certainly went to war and murdered people, but he wanted to settle down and rule peacefully once he took over, while Dalinar was constantly hungry for killing.
Dalinar could have listened to his wife much earlier, returned home, and raised his kids. He could have decided not to burn an entire city because one lord betrayed him. He could have actually read The Way of Kings rather than descending into drunkenness and neglecting his children.
Dalinar accepts this. He recognizes that he always had a choice. It’s Odium who wants him to say that he never had a chance, that he was an addict, that he had to fall. By truly accepting responsibility, and acknowledging that he chose to commit those crimes, he is able to rise.
Moash chooses to murder Elkohar, just as Dalinar chose to murder an entire city. He chooses to serve Odium knowingly, just as Dalinar chose to become the most brutal and feared warlord of his time. Both of them are men who make choices, and Moash will have many opportunities to continue on his current course or choose a different path.
If Dalinar had died at Moash’s age, everyone would remember him as a gleeful murderer. But he lived to make other choices. Why are you so eager to deny a second chance to Moash, who has killed far fewer people than Dalinar?
@78 How free Dalinar’s choices were depends on how much influence Odium could bring against him. Though it appears Odium couldn’t compel him like Ruin could his Inquisitors, he may have been able to limit the options available to Dalinar. At some point, an addict may only be able to choose between the drug and dying from withdrawal. Likewise, Dalinar’s experience of the Thrill and Odium’s influence may have limited his options to only more or less bloodsoaked paths, not peaceful retirement.
To me, it makes a difference Dalinar never denied responsibility for his actions (and he wasn’t in his right mind when he agreed to forget them), whereas Moash is running as far from responsibility as he can.
I agree with @75- we are introduced to Dalinar first as someone who is actively trying to be better. We see his good qualities and his active attempts to save the world before we see his horrific past.
And I agree that it is much harder to feel the same visceral emotional reaction to death and destruction on a large scale when compared to the death of a single character that we know well. It is not that the greater catastrophe is not horrifying/saddening, it’s just that we have a harder time grasping its significance.
I also agree with @76. Watching Moash have better examples, opportunities to better himself, a chance at redemption, and then throw it all away, makes me actively root against redemption for him. In WOR, he chooses to place his personal vengeance against Kaladin, a friend who wanted to help him and who had saved his life. He did that so that he could murder someone he considered responsible for another murder. In Oathbringer, Moash goes still further, deliberately rejecting any chance at redemption and actively choosing to surrender to evil. Maybe it does not make sense, but it is how I feel.
And while I don’t think that Moash’s actions are worse than Young!Dalinar’s butchery, I hope he does not get a redemption arc. I never liked him and after WOR, I hated him (and of course, Oathbringer just increased my hatred).
Of course, I hated both Szeth and Venli, and now actively root for Szeth (though Venli still has a long way to go for me).
@79 noblehunter
Odium keeps telling Dalinar that he didn’t have a choice, that it was all Odium, and that he can be free from his pain. Dalinari is only able to resist his influence when he accepts that he always had a choice.
Plenty of Alethi, including Gavilar, experience the Thrill. All of them do not turn into addicts. Dalinar turned into a junky because he constantly and deliberately sought the Thrill. While Gavilar viewed warfare as a means to an end, Dalinar viewed the Thrill of killing others as an end in itself.
@80 ladyrian
Current Dalinar accepts responsibility for the choices he made. At Moash’s age, Dalinar was a gleeful butcher with no regard for human life. If we saw him back then, with no knowledge of the man he becomes, we would hate him even more than Moash.
Young Dalinar had many, many opportunities to be a better man. He rejected and denied almost all of them, but none of his refusals kept him from changing when he finally decided to become someone different.
I don’t hate Szeth, but I don’t think he’s learned anything. He went from “blindly follow Shin rules” to “blindly follow the holder of my Oathstone”, and now he’s blindly following Dalinar. Szeth needs to learn how to think and choose for himself, rather than simply obeying a set of laws or a master. But I quite like his character, and I think it’s very realistic that he would choose to double down on obedience rather than taking the long, hard road to making his own choices.
@81 dptullos
I think there is actually a subtle difference with how Szeth used to act vs now. So first I feel obeying the stone shamans and the oathstone are the same one event. Szeth would not obey the holder of the oathstone, if he did not obey the decree from the stone shamans that he is truthless and is to obey whoever holds the oathstone. So him obeying the stone shamans is the core of that. Once he found out through Kaladin that the Stone Shamans were wrong, he began to question everything. Even when a Herald showed up to tell him whats what, Szeth began to question it. This is where Szeth in my opinion stops blindly following someone because that’s what the rules say he is supposed to do. When he swears the (I think) third ideal, this is when he truly begins to choose. He chooses to follow Dalinar based on the information he has. Before he followed because it was expected of the society he was born into. Now he actively chooses who he will follow. This can seem like splitting hairs but for me, one involves surrendering personal choice in favor of blaming another, while the other actively chooses to follow and bear the consequences.
@81 dptullos: Yes, agreed. If we had first seen Dalinar killing his own troops, and then the Rift and the murder of Evi, we would absolutely have hated him.
Re: young Dalinar. That is a fair point. I still feel that Moash’s very deliberate and knowing rejection of what was right is slightly different than Dalinar’s unthinking bloodthirst and violence.
Re: Szeth. I agree with @82 Scath that Szeth made a choice to swear to Dalinar and picked him over the Skybreakers and/or Odium. I think he still has a ways to go in terms of making up for his past actions, but he has at least begun.
@81 But what were Dalinar’s choices? Did Odium hedge his bets by making sure Dalinar only had bad options? Something bad was going to happen at Rathalas because that’s how Alethi politics work or there would be more bad things later. We also know that there are differences in how people experience the Thrill as the Vedens seemed to feel it worse than the Alethi. Dalinar is responsible for his choices but not necessarily the range of options available.
Scath @68:
I don’t remember fates of the support staff and dependants of the soldiers fallen at the Tower being mentioned. When the bridgemen were first assigned to newly vacant barracks Kaladin noticed some grieving women and later he briefly interracted with a light-eyed news-crier, but that was all.
And while Dalinar treated his soldiers well, and there must be some kind of death-payment to their families, travel to the Shattered Plains is both expensive and dangerous. Dalinar payed only half of the cost of bringing families over, there is no way that he could afford to pay the whole price to send them back and then also give them enough money that they might build themselves new lives elsewhere after losing their main breadwinners. It has also been mentioned that the Camps were a de-facto capital of Alethkar, with corresponding opportunities for people to earn a living, so it would have made sense for most soldiers’ widows and families to remain and do exactly that, rather than squander all their money on a trip home, risking their lives and freedom in the process – even Kaladin’s men only patrolled relatively close to the camps, so that there remained a substantial stretch of bandit country between the camps and the borders of the closest Princedom.
And sure, the widows and other female relatives of the fallen must be grieving – but most people in Alethkar don’t have the luxury of not pursuing some kind of employment even so. And given the nature of their men’s occupation they must have been more prepared than most. I’d have expected at least some literate dark-eyed women to attach themselves to the bridgemen force from the start – or be placed there by command. And some of them could have organically grown into squire material.
I am equally curious about the fate of supporting staff and dependants of Sadeas’s army after the battle of Thaylenah. We didn’t see any women among the Thrill-possessed troops or in the camp, which was empty when Shalash snuck in, and yet there must have been a full compliment of scribes, engineers, etc. with Amaram’s force.
SunDriedRainbow @60:
There does exist a fairly broad middle ground in occupations allowed both men and women in Alethkar. Much broader, in fact, than in most cultures iRL, historically. When Dalinar recruited among male civilians in his camp after the Battle of the Tower, it was mentioned that women were picking up the slack created by men who were merchants and craftsmen joining the army. And the whole ardentia deal is actually much more equal-opportunity than, again, various religious orders iRL. Yes, it does limit one’s freedom, but it isn’t like any society on Roshar is an idyll where anybody can become whatever they wish to be.
As to Dalinar vs Moash and likelyhood of redemption for the latter – I also really hope that he doesn’t get it. There is already an overload of redeemed villains in the narrative – Dalinar, Szeth, Venli, etc., somebody has to remain villainious.
Also, despite all his faults, Dalinar was never treacherous. Even in full grip of the Thrill, even desiring Gavilar’s wife with his whole being and fearing his own obsolescence, he didn’t turn on his brother. Moash betrayed his sworn word to Kholins and turned on Kaladin, to whom he owes everything, just so he could extract “revenge” on somebody only tangentially connected to his grandparents’ fate. I could have empathised better if it was about Roshone, but it wasn’t. Add to that his extreme self-centredness and lack of compassion, which we will shortly see in his chapters, and yea.
@72 I remember that too, and so it made Kal’s comment about just noticing funny to me.
@85 Isilel
So given that there aren’t keywords that I can use to pull up all the scenes for ease of reference, I have to page through Words of Radiance so this will take some time. I am only up to 20% through the book looking for these scenes to give you references. The first is page 52. It mentions female scribes working near the barracks supervising the parshmen carrying the possessions of the dead. A good chunk of those scribes had red eyes and frazzled composure which implied to Kaladin they were the wives of those deceased. Secondly, you mentioned that these support activities should have already been considered for Bridge 4. On page 56, Kaladin assigns his men to various positions. One of them is assigning Sigzil to act as their clerk as he can read glyphs. So these issues were considered then in that capacity. Third, as you mentioned on page 84, a female town crier read the proclamation to Kaladin and his men. So there were means of having documents read for the bridgemen without having their own specific scholarly staff. This would be necessary as not all officers could be assumed to be married. Some would be single and need a way to have such duties saw to. Kaladin and his men were guards to Dalinar. At that point the large part of the effort was recruiting new soldiers to replace those lost, and promoting existing soldiers to officer status. Those officers would need clerks of their own for the army and could draw from the widows potentially. There is also the confusion of rank. Militarily Kaladin outranked the town crier yet she was a light eyes and he was a dark eyes which means she outranks him socially and she grated about taking orders from him. Finally there is a scene, which I have not reached yet so I can only describe it at this point, where a scholar is taking notes for Dalinar. He remarks how she still seems upset, but chose to remain in her military capacity to honor her dead husband. I just cannot recall if it is in the middle/near the end of Words of Radiance or at the beginning of Oathbringer (and her dead husband being the product of the assassin in white instead of sadeas). Once I am able to locate that scene I will be sure to post it.
edit: I will need to confirm it, but I also do not believe there was such a thing as a darkeyed officer prior to Kaladin. Kaladin was the first as being named a Captain, and that was even pushing it. It placed Kaladin outside the traditional military structure. So as officers were the ones that needed women to scribe for, and there weren’t dark eyed officers, then there wouldn’t have been dark eyed scribes for officers. So as I typed that, I did further research and I think I was able to confirm that in our own modern day. Hopefully Evilmonkey can confirm this, but the lowest rank of an “officer” is lieutenant. So when Kaladin was under Amaram, the dark eyes that commanded him were Corporals and Sergeants commanding squads and fire teams. Those are not officers. The smallest unit an officer commands is a troop or platoon. As a captain Kaladin would command a company or squadron of about 80 to 150 men.
@82 scath
I agree with your statement that following the shamans and obeying the Oathstone were essentially the same thing.
I think that Szeth did something significant in deciding to break away from his loyalty to the shamans’ decree, but that he quickly relapsed into needing a “master”. Yes, he chose to follow Dalinar, but the fundamental problem is with his need to follow, to have someone make his choices for him rather than working things out for himself. No one is worthy of that kind of blind obedience, and picking a better master doesn’t make Szeth less of a slave.
@83 ladyrian
I think you’re right to say that Moash’s decisions are much more deliberate and thoughtful than Young Dalinar’s, but I don’t know if that makes them better or worse.
Szeth is very much a Skybreaker. He’s absolutely committed to following an external source of authority, whether that source is the shamans or Nale or Dalinar. The problem with this is that it leaves him unable to work out right and wrong for himself; Dalinar is a better guide, but does not make it wise to give him blind obedience.
@84 noblehunter
Odium may have manipulated the options available to Dalinar, but he didn’t make Dalinar consistently pick the worst options. Dalinar chose to murder everyone in Rathalas, which was extreme even by the standards of the Alethi.
@85 Isilel
I’m fine with Moash never seeking redemption, and I agree that there are plenty of redeemed villains already. What I object to is the idea that he can’t be redeemed for the unforgivable crime of killing a character we liked.
Moash wanted to murder the man who sent his grandparents to die in prison. He did attempt to murder Kaladin, who was a friend who had been nothing but good to him.
Dalinar murdered everyone in Rathalas, including the children. Their lives were just as real and important as Elkohar’s, and most of them were innocent of any crime against Dalinar. If you look at things from the perspective of the dead, they don’t care that Dalinar was loyal to his brother when he burned the city.
Loyalty is one of the most overrated virtues, since it allows people to be as evil as they want to “them” as long as they’re dedicated to “us”. Kaladin’s character is defined in many ways by refusing to draw easy distinctions and choosing to see the value of “other” lives; Young Dalinar is defined by his indifference to human life.
@88 Given how heavy the Thrill was on him at Rathalas, he may not have had a choice; not after the ambush. It’s thematically similar to how Veil screws up in Kolinar. One tries to make the right choice but it creates opportunities for other forces to do something horrible.
Being under Odium’s control also doesn’t mean Dalinar is not responsible. As Miles Vorkosigan has said, just because the person in charge isn’t in control, it doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible the outcome. Both Miles and Dalinar know how unpleasant that is.
Sounds like Szeth needs to speak the Fifth Ideal to truly be free.
@88 noblehunter
The entire climax of Oathbringer is about Dalinar accepting that he was responsible for what he did. It wasn’t the Thrill and Odium that made him a murderous warlord; it was his own choices.
The idea that Dalinar was somehow controlled by Odium undermines the main theme of the book, and it’s a lie that Odium is using to manipulate Dalinar.
Maybe Szeth can gain freedom by speaking the Fifth Ideal, but Nale is a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal, and he’s still blindly following an outside authority. The whole concept of the Skybreakers is against individual freedom, so I don’t see how progressing would tend to make them more free.
@90 dptullos
There is a gothic story called “The Monk”. It is about a very pious monk that everyone says is like a gift from god. The monk was an orphan baby left on the steps of the monastery. The story begins when the monk in question gets to meet the outside world for the first time. The story continues rather gruesomely, involving the monk having sexual thoughts about a girl, kidnapping her, and attempting to rape her. The point of this story that all the monk’s piety and purity meant nothing without it being tested. Anyone can be chaste if there is no temptation. Conversely I believe the point noblehunter is trying to make is if you have an alcoholic and place him in a bar where everyone is drinking and having a great time, it is going to be harder to abstain than putting the alcoholic in room with everyone drinking water and having a good time. The alcoholic would still be responsible for the choice to drink alcohol in both situations, but one is being tilted rather strongly in one direction while the other in another direction. Hope that helps.
edit: oh and regarding why isn’t everyone else with the Thrill like Dalinar, Odium himself says he has been grooming Dalinar for this for a long time, far longer than Amaram. So Odium was focused on Dalinar in particular
edit 2: though rereading noblehunters post saying that Dalinar had no choice, that I disagree with, so ultimately I may be agreeing with you dptullos lol.
Now as to the skybreakers, the fifth ideal results in the skybreaker themselves becoming the law. Nale is insane. There is a theory that each of the ten fools are the ten heralds but perverting or distorting their own ideals. Nale is just and confident. Since he is mad, he is not confident in his decisions, so he seeks Ishar to confirm for him, and Nale is certainly not acting just. So I do not think we can use Nale as a vector to accurately judge the skybreakers as an order.
@90 – I said that Dalinar accepted responsibility for what he did, despite being under Odium’s influence his whole adult life. The point wasn’t Dalinar or Moash committed less or more atrocities than the other, it was that one accepted responsibility (even while under extreme duress and against the manipulation of basically an evil god,) and the other didn’t.
The point is Dalinar realizes he had a choice, and chooses to take responsibility. Not every Alethi becomes a Thrill addict, but it appears Dalinar had an addictive personality which made him much more susceptible. People should go back and re-read his flashbacks, when its like the Thrill felt like the world was bathed in colour, and then post-Thrill, everything was black and white. Also, I feel people are greatly underestimating how hard it would be, to be a decent, peaceful person when you are the intended Champion / pawn of Odium.
@Several – in comparing the atrocities of Young Dalinar and Current Moash: all life should be valuable and the massacre at Rathalas was horrific. However, the murders Dalinar committed have no lasting effect on Roshar. Alethkar goes on. Life goes on. Moash, however, kills Jezrien – leader of the Heralds and vital to their chances against Odium – and while Jezrien is insane, maybe the Radiants had a chance if they could give him some moments of lucidity (the same way Talenant did when Dalinar bought the realms together). And it feels like Moash will end up doing much, much, worse, to the point of maybe even becoming Odium’s champion.
@91 scath
That’s a good allegory. Circumstances can definitely influence our choices.
I don’t think we’ve met any Fifth Ideal Skybreakers other than Nale. You rightly point out that he is mad, so we don’t have much of an idea about what a sane Fifth Ideal Skybreaker would be like.
“Becoming the law” is confusing to me, since it seems to go against the Skybreaker principle of obeying external sources of authority. I guess we’ll have to read and find out.
@92 Gaz
Moash hasn’t accepted responsibility yet. At Moash’s age, Dalinar was a murder junkie with no remorse, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s impossible for Moash to change.
Life goes on, except for the people of Rathalas. They’re all dead. By the standard you describe, every atrocity committed in Earth’s history didn’t particularly matter. After all, they were going to die anyway, and other people would be born afterwards.
The strategic consequences of an action have little impact on its morality. Jezrien’s death had far more effect on the fight against Odium than the deaths of a thousand children, but that doesn’t mean that murdering a thousand children would somehow be less evil.
@93 – Moash hasn’t accepted responsibility yet, but by the time he does, it may already be too late. At this point it seems likely Dalinar is finished committing atrocities and Rathalas will be the worst thing he ever does – and that was bad enough. How much worse Moash can do, however, is unknown.
Morality aside, Dalinar’s atrocities were limited to Alethkar. Whatever Moash ends up doing could have devastating consequences for Roshar, and maybe even the Cosmere as a whole. He hasn’t done anything yet, but the path he is on doesn’t look good.
I personally agree with both @Braid_Thug and @dptullos.
I agree the narrative has been written in a given order such as to present us Dalinar, the respectable honorable revered man while only hinting on the warlord he once was. In Oathbringer, the narrative focuses heavily on Dalinar’s inner pains, inner guilt, not so much on his actions, even less on his victims. It is every easy to toss the death of a thousand of children under the rug when the narrative tells us their death served no purpose, when there is no one left living to mourn the Rift nor to speak the tale of an inferno.
Every single individual who was involved with Rathalas has sworn to never speak of it again and as dptullos smartly pointed out: the dead cannot speak. The dead have no voice in the chapter. The dead are dead and if there is no one left to remember them, then they become forgotten.
And thus it was, as far as the narrative is concerned, Dalinar’s pains suddenly mattered more than the pain he caused.
Whether or not Moash killing Jezrien matters more than the death of the Rathalas’s children is irrelevant to me, as a reader. In a world where Dalinar Kholin is allowed to butcher his way for 25-something years followed by 6 years of drunken self-pity not to forget how he treated his kids before attempting to redeem himself, then I do not see why Moash shouldn’t be given the same opportunity.
Is it desirable within a narrative already clogged with redemption? Probably not, in a world where a man can willingly put a town filled with civilians to the torch in order to make “an example”, a man like Moash is definitely not beyond redemption.
I found Moash to be a very…. miserable man. He never were in the right place at the right moment, neither did he benefit from the agency, the protection and the blind-admiration a man like Dalinar benefited from his entire life. He could have made much better choices, but he never really had all of the information to make them whereas Dalinar did, he just preferred killing.
Dalinar had every chances to change, every help he ever needed, all the support a man can possibly have, the unconditional love of his entire family and yet it took him decades to make it. Moash only ever had Bridge 4, but one mistake and he was out. One bad decision and it was over. How many mistakes was Dalinar allowed to make without ever losing one glimmer of love, admiration and respect from his closed ones?
Dalinar is indeed a very lucky man… and I totally agree with dptullos, he is totally responsible for this actions. His entire arc revolves on him accepting responsibility and refusing to blame Odium nor the Thrill for his own misgivings. He agrees he always had a choice,. he just always took the wrong one. Like Moash.
@89: Shallan doesn’t make the conscious decision of killing anyone. She merely makes a judgment error, out of ignorance, which causes people she thought she were protecting to die. I found it very different from Dalinar consciously making the decision Rathalas needed to pay for Tanalan’s ambush and consciously deciding just conquering the city is not enough, everyone living has to die.
To be honest, Dalinar would probably agree more with Gepeto and others than with me.
I wonder why Sanderson has written Dalinar to have the narrative advantage over Moash, then.
Also, who is nearer the point of no return? Moash or Taravangian?
@96 Gaz
There is no point of no return. If there’s one main theme of Oathbringer, it’s that no one is past redemption. Venli summoned the Everstorm out of pride and ambition, and she’s shaping up to be one of the protagonists. I would never have guessed that in WoR.
Dalinar owns what he has done. That doesn’t make his crimes any less, but he knows he can do good now, and he wants to keep doing it. The people of Rathalas cannot be helped. The people of Roshar can.
Shallan does decide to kill her father.
Didn’t Jasnah suggest killing the heralds in an attempt to restore the oathpact? Maybe the special knife Moash uses prevents the effect Jasnah intends, but it is possible that he accidentally works against Odium. If that is so, did the Fused make a mistake, or are they not really on Odium’s side and want to take revenge for being imprisoned on his planet for so long?
@@@@@ 97 – I agree that no one is past redemption until they die. What I mean is that the actions of Moash and Taravangian, as influenced by Odium, could lead to the destruction of Roshar entirely. In which case there would actually be a point of no return, because everyone on the planet would be dead. And because SA is only one part of the Cosmere, I wouldn’t rule this out at all.
@99 Gaz
Interesting point. However, it’s important to remember that all of Taravangian’s actions are designed to ensure that at least some humans survive. If the Knights Radiant fail, then Odium could kill every human on Roshar. Taravangian’s deal ensures that there will be survivors.
@@@@@ 95, Gepeto, Glad to see we agree of a few points. But could I ask you a favor? My name is Braid_Tug – tugging on a braid – a thing from WoT and being a fiber artist.
Not Thug – thought some people can use cords to be thugs. I believe this has happened a few times.
Not sure if it’s a keyboard issue, since I know you are not in North America. When I used a German keyboard, my family had several things to say about my emails home. And the very creative spelling from their point of view. :-D
@@@@@ 100, dptullos – congrats on the hunny!
Though I’m not sure Odium wants to kill all the humans. That’s very Ruin like. I’m thinking its more along the lines of he wants everyone to be under his “passions” and willing to serve him and the Thrill. Which could lead to death of everything. Yet, is it death he wants or control? Or simply the ability to leave Braize and take over more Shards?
@93 dptullos
The way I see the Skybreaker oaths is a lot like a legal system. I believe there is a WoB that they functioned very much like Military Police. I feel Skybreakers of the 2nd oath are patrolmen or constables. They are to put the law they serve above all else and let it guide them. They are not to interpret nor make the law, only enforce it. Skybreakers of the 3rd oath are more like sergeants. They have a little more say but trust in following their supervisor’s assignments (chief of police) to keep cohesion. Skybreakers of the 4th oath I liken to inspectors or detectives. They pursue individual cases and apply the law to their best discretion and ability to apprehend the criminal and protect the innocent. Skybreakers of the 5th oath I liken to judges. They interpret the law, apply it to the situation, and through that interpretation also create law (commonly referred to as case law). So first they obey the law, then they broaden the application of the law, then they follow the interpretation of the law by a superior, then they begin to apply the law individually, and finally they interpret and apply the law for all.
Windrunners are very individualistic. One windrunner would disagree with another windrunner on what the right thing to do is. They are on a much more personal level of person to person. A skybreaker tries to adhere to laws that affect everyone, and tries to have them apply uniformly in order to protect everyone in all situations. This of course ultimately is impossible because law cannot be perfect in every instance all the time, so that is why judges interpret and apply the law in more specific situations.
Basically I think where the conflict is coming in for you is you view it as continually external while I believe they are working for the ideal law that would apply to all. Much like a child first is given general rules to keep them safe, then looks to their parents for the proper actions in certain scenarios, then begins to apply the lessons they learned in their own lives, and then finally as adults makes their own rules and judgements that they then pass on. It is a more structured, formalized, and blatant form of just about every education system we have. No where in that process does it prevent questioning, and in fact as we see Szeth quickly advance through the ranks, he is the primary one that does in fact question. Most of the other skybreakers do just accept things at face value. I feel Szeth is the one we are to see as a true skybreaker representative of how the order was originally. I also think if Szeth finds Dalinar’s judgement to become questionable, does not mean he has to continue to blindly follow. It means he then needs to seek a different truth to maintain his oath. I think the problem that keeps coming up is we see an order run by a madman who is distorting the ideals that he was meant to exemplify, and the order was meant to hold. As result the order on whole begins to be seen in a negative light. Same stands for me for the Releasers. We see Malata, and read some tidbits about how powerful they were, and we then see the order in a negative light. I am choosing to reserve my judgement till I learn more.
@97 dptullos
I agree, there is never truly a point of no return. There can be a point of no return to the individuals affected by the past actions taken, but I do think the message being sent by these books is if you truly regret your past actions, and seek to do better there is always a chance for personal redemption. I use the word personal on purpose. There is no way to make everyone happy. The most important step is the next one.
@98 birgit
Jasnah was going on old information. She felt the oathpact was (and it is) still in effect, so by convincing or killing a herald to go back to Braize would prevent the fused from continually returning and thereby give the war effect a chance to gain some ground (for instance negotiating with the parshendi now that the fused wouldn’t be continually possessing them). This was in error because she did not know at that time that the Everstorm returns the fused regardless the status of the oathpact. I personally believe the reason for Odium killing Jezereh and potentially the other heralds is to try and end the oathpact another way, freeing Odium without needing the war to play out. Although trapping Odium was not a primary goal of the oathpact, it did have that effect. So I could see him looking for other ways of ending it than straight up war (turning Dalinar into his Champion, or permanently killing the Heralds for instance).
@99 Gaz and 100 dptullos
I think Taravangian is being influenced by Cultivation, not Odium. I am of the camp that coined the term “Taravangian is a plant of Cultivation”. Now I am not arguing comparisons, nor who is worse or better regarding Dalinar and Moash. I will however say that Moash is working with the Parshendi because he feels humanity is screwed up, and the Parshendi deserve the planet. So for him at least (whether his thought process is right or wrong), he is redeeming himself by helping them. So as long as the parshendi are alive at least, Moash can seek redemption (in his mind). Now whether or not Odium will annihilate all life on the planet, Parshendi, Human and all, Moash does not know that.
So I’m going to wade into the whole Dalinar vs Moash discussion here. I feel that, as Gepeto @95 says, Moash is written as a rather miserable, pitiful character. He is written as a mirror to Kaladin with a similar arc – he is a darkeyes whose family was taken advantage of by the lighteyes, which resulted in the death of a beloved family member(s); in an attempt to get revenge, he winds up in the bridge crews, etc. etc. The difference being, where Kaladin always strove to save others in the same position (other soldiers, fellow slaves, Bridge 4), Moash only looked out for himself, and worked for vengeance. When things don’t go the way he wants them to, he gets angry (odious?) and blames others instead of taking responsibility and agency to fix things.
Now Young!Dalinar, he has committed many horrible acts in his time. He is seen to be Thrill-seeking at all times, which gets worse as the years go on. As others have said, he has an addictive personality, so being in a war lets him seek out that which he desires. While in his head, we see that he has a certain amount of control over that, as well – he uses the Thrill as a tool, at first, until it becomes so desirable it consumes him. However, he never once blames others for his actions. The Thrill is considered an “Alethi” thing, and is never really talked about, but everyone knows about it and considers it a fact of battle. So really, I think the biggest difference is between Moash and Dalinar is that while one ALWAYS blames others for his misfortunes, the other never considers his actions as outside of his control and if things do go wrong, he acts to try and fix things (at least until Evi dies).
Scath @102. Great theory about how to view the different stages of Oathdom in the Skybreakers.
Dptullos @88. I disagree that “loyalty is one of the most overrated virtues, since it allows people to be as evil as they want to ‘them’ as long as they’re dedicated to ‘us.” Without loyalty, there can be no trust. If somebody is loyal to me, I am more incline to trust them. Likewise, a may be loyal to someone, but that does not mean I will blindly follow them. I think you are forgetting that loyalty still requires a person to have an element of free choice. Loyalty that requires one to follow the leader’s orders no matter how heinous the followee thinks they may be is slavery.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@67 Isilel: I am curious why you say it is clear that Sigzil shouldn’t be a full Worldsinger? Sure, he is terrible at storytelling, but he struck me as excellent at imparting information about true cultures and places.
Sigzil’s story is going at a snail’s pace for books as long as the SA ones. I feel like who he tried and failed to murder must be significant to the plot somehow, but I can’t figure who that might be that would lead him to be a slave in Sadeas’s army. When Hoid met up with Kaladin in the first book, he grumbled about Sigzil not letting him know he was still alive, and speculated that maybe Sigzil was afraid that Hoid would rescue him again. Underneath that clerk-like exterior, is a man of action who has a strong sense of justice and a penchant for finding trouble. I am dying to know the full story.
I like the idea of some of Bridge Four becoming some other kind of Radiant for variety. It kind of would go with the “unite them” theme, where people from the different orders could work closely together. But Sigzil was one of the first to draw in stormlight as one of Kaladin’s squires, and he wants to be the first in the air. He seems destined to become a Windrunner.
Kaladin not telling anyone else about Moash and the assassination plot– yeah, that is frustrating. Up until the last second, he was offering both Moash and Grave a way out, and he still thinks of Moash as his friend. But Kaladin did put together that Graves was working with the Assassin in White, so he really should be discussing what he knows with someone.
@87 scath: I too was wondering if there was an issue with lighteyed women working for darkeyed soldiers, though nothing is said about it directly in text. You are right that Kaladin was in an unusual position for a darkeyed soldier in WoR. Although he may not be the first darkeyed captain, Dalanar said that that was the highest rank he dared to give him. Kaladin was a captain doing a battalionlord’s job, without the training a lighteyed officer would have gotten, or having support staff of officers who had been trained in running an army at that level.
Maybe I am weird. I constantly ask questions. I sometimes feel adter the fact that I apologized when it wasn’t my fault or snapped and blamed others when I shouldn’t have which then leads me to go and apologize. I am CONSTANTLY questioning my own motivations and it seems to bother me when it seems like no one else does. I guess I am a philosopher who wants to be a creator
@105 nightheron
That is true, Sigzil did do a good job of discussing other cultures when speaking to Kaladin, Moash, and the rest back in Way of Kings.
Regarding dark eyed, I did a search for dark eyed officer and not a single instance came up. When they went to get outfitted for uniforms, the guy giving them out stated how he never thought he would see the day that a darkeyed would hold such a position.
edit: Words of Radiance page 64 (Rind, the quartermaster, a light eyed tenner says this) “I suppose. I’ve got your uniform over there, Captain. A dark eyed captain! Who would have thought it possible! You’ll be the only one in the army. The only one ever, so far as I know!“
Officers in world history were nobility. So too it appears to be in Stormlight. I have not had a chance to do an exhaustive search to state it as a fact, but what information I have confirmed, and my recollection say to me that it is. It is said directly in text how often lighteyed soldiers, and the light eyed town crier were uncomfortable as them simply being a lighteyes means they out rank Kaladin, yet the military rank provided him meant he outranked them. It was only by separating Kaladin’s command from the standard command structure, and having him directly answerable to Dalinar that Kaladin was able to function as a Captain at all. Otherwise he might have been subject to prejudice from lighteyes upset over the idea of a darkeyes rising above their “station”. When I have a chance I also came up with the idea of using a word search on widow to see what comes up. I will follow up when I can.
edit 2: did the quick search using widow, here is an additional scene that came up
Words of Radiance page 806 “The soldiers hesitantly continued positioning the bridge, unfolding it beneath the watchful eyes of three of Dalinar’s engineers – widowed wives of his fallen officers. Several carpenters were also on hand to work at their orders if the bridge got stuck or a piece snapped”
@ dptullos re: Szeth
I feel like you have hit on what will be the main growth point for Szeth going forward. Just as it seems Kaladin will have to somehow overcome his guilt about not being able to save everyone to progress, I view Szeth learning to choose for himself to be his big hurdle to progress. To add to what scath said, I view the progression to the Fifth Ideal for skybreakers to be along the lines of realizing that no law system is perfect, and to learn to rely on their experiences to adapt laws and its application to allow for both justice and mercy.
@107 scath: So you were right, Kaladin was the only darkeye to achieve the rank of captain. It is definitely shown how awkward that can be with their caste system.
@109 nightheron
I am looking forward to seeing how Radiancy will further upset the caste system, and other rigid limiting societal systems on Roshar. Isilel made a great point regarding Jasnah’s male veristitalian friend. If he became a squire and then eventual elsecaller, whose ranks prefer scholars (though soldiers have joined their ranks as well), then it could have the same effect as Lyn becoming a Windrunner.
Re: The Skybreakers
Looking at the other orders of knight, the progression of their oaths seems like a mission of learning and self-discovery. Since we get the generic gist of the 5 Skybreaker oaths, I don’t see much outcome but Szeth’s “healing” and liberation, how one swears allegiance to less and less esoteric things, until they “become the law”. Since “following the law” is what the Skybreakers DO, I take that to mean “Final trust in my own conscience”.
I wonder if the other orders get this kind of implied liberation at the end of their roads.
Perhaps worth mentioning that a restriction on darkeyed officers would only apply to the Vorin cultures. The Makabaki, say, wouldn’t even think of it.
All this discussion of whether Moash should have the possibility of redemption has given me an insight: I know the main theme of the “back five” tetrology of the Stormlight Archive now.
“The Redemption of Rayse.”
@96: I think Brandon’s intentions might have merely be to highlight how choices appearing trivial, at the start, can shape our future. He might have also wanted to highlight how Moash’s absence of a lineage made it much more difficult for him to make better choices. Dalinar has been given a lot more leniency than Moash and this perhaps ties back to who he was when everything started. In other words, Dalinar is the King’s brother whereas Moash is just yet another darkeyed man who was doomed on the day he made one bad decision based on his feelings.
Who nearest to the point of no return? Probably Taravangian because he understands the choices he has made whereas Moash never truly grasped what he was choosing. Circumstances were such a very bad decision suddenly appeared as if it were a good one. A world where everyone, lighteyed and darkeyed, are treated as equals is a worthy dream, too bad Moash naively thought supporting the Fused would accomplish it.
@97: But it doesn’t seem right for the people of Rathalas to be forgotten, to have died… just so their torturer could get a chance at a redemption which would have likely never happened without the “incident”. As a reader, this bothers me immensely.
@98: Deciding to kill someone does not make someone inherently evil. What is bothering about Moash accepting this task is he has no reasons to do so. To many readers eyes, this makes him nonredeemable. That and the fact he killed Elhokar, a character readers had started to care about. This last one reinforce my claim it is easier to forgive/like Dalinar because his victims are nameless. I made an argumentation which went within this direction a few weeks back, but as always, it was met with vehement over-whelming disagreement.
@101: Apologies. I wish I could blame my keyboard, but I honestly genuinely thought it was Braid_Thug and not Braid_Tug. I did *get* what the name meant and where it came from, but my head somehow mixed both words “tug” and “thug”. Now, you can be sure I will remember :-)
It is rare I find another reader who agrees with me with respect to Dalinar’s parental skills…. I often feel I am the only one who reads what I read within the narrative. I try to comfort myself in recalling all of the times I was right despite the strong opposition I faced.
@104: I tend to agree with dtpullos on the matter of loyalty. Loyalty is precious and, in a general manner, a good thing, but bling loyalty isn’t. In other words, superseding your critical judgment in favor of loyalty is never a good idea.
@Gepeto, but Dalinar’s victims are not all nameless. I know the name “Evi” for one.
The mainstream Christian belief (based Paul’s letters) is that the only sin that is unforgivable is to reject redemption. Note that this is explicitly what Amaram did. Moash is treading near this but hasn’t, I think, quite done it.
Disclaimer: I’m not a Christian nor a theologian.
@111 Kefka
There has been a theory going around based on the Skybreakers that when each order reaches the fifth oath, they become the embodiment of their highest ideals. So in the Skybreakers case they become the law, and so on. I am very interested in finding out the other oaths of the other orders and seeing a fully oathed knight radiant among our main cast :)
@112 Carl
Very true. Other cultures also do not necessarily have the prohibition of women fighting I think. As the various cultures are forced to either fight together or fight each other, I think the cross cultures coupled with Radiancy crossing all cultural barriers would be very beneficial for cultural advancement.
@110 scath
Radiancy won’t upset the caste system because the caste system is built on Radiancy. “Lighteyes” come from wielding a Shardblade, and they’re hereditary.
Any darkeyes who become Radiants will become lighteyes, which automatically makes them members of the ruling caste. Their transformation will be used as proof that “worthy” darkeyes will be blessed by the Almighty with light eyes, so the remaining dark eyes should work hard, obey their betters, and hope that one day the Almighty will grant them advancement as well.
Radiants will only further enforce the narrative than lighteyes rule and darkeyes obey.
@113 Gepeto
The people of Rathalas died because Dalinar and his men killed them. Dalinar always had a chance to turn his life around, but he kept ignoring or rejecting his earlier opportunities. Murdering everyone in Rathalas, including his wife, finally broke through the hard shell of arrogance and homicidal glee that kept him from seeing what he really was.
If that doesn’t seem right to you, it’s because it isn’t right or fair. But neither is life; sometimes the best we can get is that evil people will realize that truth after they’ve committed their crimes and try to do something different.
Moash isn’t any more “irredeemable” than Young Dalinar. But, like Young Dalinar, he’s doing an immense amount of harm. Even if he changes later on, the evil he’s done cannot be fixed or erased.
@115 scath
Creating a new ruling class based on magical powers does not automatically undermine existing ruling castes. All of the new Radiants will be lighteyes, which will further reinforce the idea that lighteyes are chosen by the Almighty to rule. Radiants may be raised to the upper ranks of the current hierarchy, but that doesn’t mean that ordinary people without magic powers will be allowed the same social mobility.
@116 dptullos
Thing is I do not necessarily think that the Alethi connect the light eyes with the radiants. I think it had a lot to do with owning dead shardblades. Remember the national religion of Alethkar vilifies the radiants for a great betrayal. Kaladin didn’t know that by becoming a Radiant his eyes would turn light. Considering the different orders and the different type of people the spren look for their orders, it would be difficult for the society to claim light eyes are better and exclusive when theoretically anyone can become one. The reigning lighteyes cannot even enact societal pressure to ensure only their children become ones. In other situations, you can say entrance for all for instance with a test, but then put things in place to make education difficult for poor individuals, and thereby only the rich who were better trained for the test past. This would not work with spren. They have their own means of decision outside of human culture. It is hard for existing lighteyes to say they are better, when a darkeyes becomes not only a lighteyes but a radiant as well. In mistborn it could be enforced because the powers are genetic, so they could do selective breeding, but there is no such dividing line for radiants. Finally as the original structure based on the radiant in the vision, that the radiants serve, they do not rule, leads me to believe that is another structure that will alter cultures as they stand.
I never said a new ruling class would be made because of the magical powers. Elhokar’s and Dalinar’s arrangement actually prevents this. The radiants are outside national ranks. Urithiru is its own autonomous nation that only operates in retaliation to the voidbringers. If a darkeyes is under an abusive lighteyes, but then becomes a radiant, that dark eyes is now part of Urithiru and the light eyes is powerless to stop it. This would cause the same questioning that a woman radiant causes. If even a woman or a darkeyes can gain powers to save the world, then what makes the lighteyes better? Nothing. It becomes revealed that their lightness isn’t ordained, and as far as we know, their lightness is sourced at a darkeyes turned radiant, or a dark eyes that just happen to grab a shardblade. At the core there are no differences between lighteyes and darkeyes, only a happenstance of birth or situation. When anyone can become a lighteyes, the elitism falls to the side. At least that is how I see things developing, but I understand your points and can see why you would disagree
edit: in my mind the questioning would look like this “the lighteyes are ordained by the almighty to rule the darkeyes”. “well thats interesting because the head of the radiants Dalinar says the almighty is dead. also i was a darkeyes meant to be ruled by you, but now i am a lighteyes. i am now no different than you whatsoever. I know now how light eyes really got to become lighteyes after the spren left. So what makes you so special? You ancestor grabbed a dead spren. Congrats. What makes it ok for you to rule over me?”
Another important to note is that Dalinar is calling out his own bbehavior on a MASSIVE NATIOONAAL AND INTERNATIONAL SCALE as if saying all of you who think I AM A HERO because of what I have done YOU ARE WRONG, I WAS WRONG. While for Dalinar personally it is about owning up to his sins it will pe interesting to see how this affects Alethi culture going forward. That this man who was so revered for battle and conquest LOST what was most important to him because of it and all the glory and praise in the end did nothing but helped contribute to a downward spiral. Maybe this is overly optimistic of me but I hope this is what happens. That people who praise the old blackthron and degrade the new will finally take a good look at the man himself. It seems we are so often take one element of a man’s life in a vaccuum. That we take a look at a conquerer and either see the conquest as glorious or awful thing but neither think about what drove them to it, or what changed them afterward to try and do better. While this may be the end of Dalinar’s flashbacks I don’t think this will be the end of learning what drove him and Galinar to this point.
@117 scath
It’s always been possible in theory for darkeyes to become lighteyes by gaining a Shardblade. There are great heroes of myth who rose to lighteyed status by winning a Shardblade in battle, and the Vorin church emphasizes the idea of advancing in station through making war.
This kind of advancement was incredibly rare in actual practice, but it doesn’t contradict Vorin orthodoxy. When “worthy” darkeyes are exalted to lighteyed status, that is simply proof that the meritocracy is real and that the lighteyed hierarchy is legitimate. Lighteyes are still better and exclusive, even if it is possible for Radiants to change eye color.
The vast majority of darkeyes are still darkeyes, don’t have Radiant powers, and everyone in charge is still a lighteyes. It’s certainly a significant change to have darkeyes becoming lighteyes, but hierarchical systems can be flexible. The existence of a new caste does not automatically destroy the caste system, and if one darkeyes becomes Radiant and is no longer under his lord’s authority, there are many more whose eye color and status remains the same.
Have these changes challenged the existing system? Absolutely. Will most low nahn darkeyes be able to gain access to information or ask the right questions? Probably not.
Regarding Radiants and light-eyes, remember that Kaladin is a land-owning noble of Alethkar now. Dalinar gave him land before the parsh overran everything.
@119 dptullos
That is a form of institutionalized prejudice that I mentioned regarding test taking. “Anyone” can win a shardblade in combat. Just unless you either have shards of your own, or a whole group of soldiers helping, it is so rare it borders on mythical. Same thing with the Prime in Azir. “Anyone” can take the test to become the Prime. Just before Szeth happened, it required a well written essay. Applicants who had the expensive and encompassing education that the higher ruling class would have gain a huge advantage over the lower class that either cannot afford the education, or do not have the time. Thereby the ruling remains ruling and the poor remain poor. Spren however totally upends this. Dalinar released his visions in Words of Radiance, so everyone will have heard the vision of the radiants giving up their shards, and a group of random men grabbing the swords. No great gifting of blades to honored men. Just the men who were able to hold onto them. As the radiants advance in their oaths, their spren remember more and more of their past. So a low nahn darkeyes turned radiant would gain access to this information. Now yes, there are always people in every system that like being on top and shoving everyone else down. So yes there will be darkeyes that having just become lighteyes, might turn their nose up at what was once their people. It has happened in the real world. Catholic Irish were prejudiced against in America when they first came over. It was said that they followed a “foreign power” in the pope, and you couldn’t trust them. They eventually rose in society, and then began being prejudiced towards the next group coming in.
However radiancy is a function that occurs across class, economic, and racial borders. It does not matter what your station in life is, how many spheres in your pocket, nor the color of your skin nor eyes, you can potentially become a radiant. For every darkeyes that thinks “hey i am a light eyes now! i can shove down people now!” there are darkeyes that have brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, and friends that are still darkeyed. They would say “hey how you are being treated isn’t right! there is nothing that separates you from them.” In many movements across history, a large part that helps change progress is when individuals among the establishment actively help the minority. The lighteyes would have no means to enforce nor prevent anyone from becoming a radiant. Couple that with the world war necessitating the blurring of responsibilities and I think change is inevitable.
@120 noblehunter
that was prior to Elhokar’s and Dalinar’s agreement. After that agreement, Kaladin can rule the land, but for all purposes regarding that land, Elhokar is his king. For all purposes regarding radiancy, it is Dalinar. Kaladin cannot enforce rules and laws that conflict with King Elhokar’s ruling unless it pertains to the voidbringers.
@120 So then he was a land owning lighteyes. The Parsh are landowners now.
whitespine@108
Bingo.
@122 My point was that Radiants are already being co-opted into the existing aristocracy.
@114: True, but somehow Evi’s death did not seem to have marked the readers significantly. I have some very negative commentaries on Evi. Not here but elsewhere and it made me think her character didn’t really manage to earn much sympathy.
@116: All true. Hence my problem with Dalinar isn’t so much how unfair it is him specifically should get just enough chances to change to pick one, but he is being held into such a high esteem by everyone spending more than five minutes with him. That’s what is so unfair with Dalinar: the fact his past deeds do not have a higher cost than they had.
We had this discussion before. I was of the opinion a few years being drunk and hearing voices in his head isn’t a sufficient price for the death he caused. In fact, I was even arguing, had he done the equivalent to ANY city within the States, no one would ever believe he deserves anything resembling a second chance. Some crimes are just too awful, too horrible to be forgiven. Luckily for Dalinar, he does not live within the States, he lives in Alethkar where crimes are more easily forgotten, even the burning of a town filled with civilians.
IMHO, Moash still hasn’t done anywhere near as much harm as Dalinar did. He killed a king and a crazy Herald who got to live for millennia. I am still taking the side of the Rathalas children who never got to live one life, no matter what kind of life it would have been. They never had the chance so even if killing Jezrien turns out creating a lot of problems, Moash still just killed two people. And he had no idea who it was he was killing. He has no way of knowing it will have repercussion if it does have repercussions. Dalinar genuinely killed thousand of people on purpose while being perfectly aware he was going to kill thousand of people.
No one, so far, in the narrative has done equivalent evil.
@118: The way I read it, Dalinar gained a lot more by becoming the man he is now than he lost. I did not read him losing respect nor fame nor admiration nor anything substantial. Overall, the cost for his transformation ultimately amounts to a thousand of unnamed people no one is crying for not bothering to remember and a wife he never really liked all that much. Sure, he feels guilt and everything, but what has he lost which is truly, really impact-full and significant?
@125 Gepeto
Don’t underestimate the power of guilt. Being locked inside your own head, endlessly relieving the past, can be just as much of a punishment as a prison cell.
Self-respect often counts for more than outside respect, fame, and admiration. The Alethi may have adored their Blackthorn, but Dalinar hated and despised himself.
If you’re arguing that life is not fair, this is true. Dalinar never faced justice for his crimes, and he is able to enjoy the love and admiration of his children, a happy marriage, and the respect of society. However, I think that Dalinar did suffer for what he did, though that in no way erases the deaths he caused.
Perfect justice does not exist. Society executes or incarcerates criminals to deter future offenders, to prevent dangerous people from harming others, or to satisfy our own vindictive tendencies. There is no punishment that can restore Rathalas. Mercy would call for forgiving Dalinar, no matter his crimes; practicality says that allowing him to live and retain his current position will save lives.
@116: Perhaps this has been my problem from the start… Whenever I read the paper and I hear there was yet another shoot-out in some American school and kids were killed, I cannot find in me the capacity to claim mercy for their killer. I do not care who this person is nor how much this person has been suffering: I consider the killer deserves 0 attention nor sympathy. I reserve those for the real victims, but I guess this seems to be only me. Let’s say I am surprised by this, but it truly seems to be the case.
My problem with Dalinar is I never found his sufferance to be enough given all he has retained (love/admiration from his children, the woman he loved, his rank, his position within society, his wealth and even his health!) to even start atoning his crimes. I much prefer how Kadash, broken by similar guilt, quit the army and dedicated his life to servitude in an attempt to earn forgiveness and redemption. This, I found profoundly touching. Dalinar? He lost nothing he hold particularly dear in payment for his crimes while Kadash gave up everything which was him.
I however agree Dalinar is probably going to save life because he has changed. It’s just… I can’t pity him nor feel sorry for him nor victimize him. I want the world to know the truth, to know who they are following and I don’t want it to be easy for Dalinar to start this new life. So far, there was not enough of that within the books. Perhaps in book 4.
@127 Gepeto
You want people to get what they deserve. Life does not usually work that way, and neither does the justice system.
The world does know the truth. Notice how Queen Fen refers to Dalinar as a bloody warlord, how the Azish view the Alethi as barbarians, and how everyone assumes that Dalinar’s plan to “unite them” involves invading everyone who refuses to join his coalition. I worried that Dalinar would find it to easy to build an alliance, but Sanderson did an excellent job of showing how Roshar’s leaders distrust the Alethi in general and Dalinar in particular. They’re not working with Dalinar because they like him; they’re working with him because the apocalypse has arrived and they don’t have the luxury of turning away a powerful ally.
@128: Of course I want people to get what they deserve which is why I appreciate living in a state of law. Even if imperfect, I much prefer knowing this are consequences to breaking the laws.
Granted, it also makes me feel sorry the order I seem to have the most affinities with (Skybreakers) have turned rogue and are the enemies. I particularly enjoyed the commentary where they spoke of how they tried to be lenient, but were quick to realize if some had their lessons and went to have quiet life, others just did more crimes. Given the impossibility to determine which one is which, they resolved themselves to punish everyone according to their crimes.
Oh I did notice, I just felt the other nations begun to trust Dalinar way too quickly. Granted, Fen had no choice, but the others actually did. Thought I was pleased to see them flee when they learn of this Highking business.
@124 noblehunter
And as we see Kaladin has no interest in maintaining a societal structure that supports abuse of his family. So by giving him power, the existing lighteyes would be placing the proverbial knife at their own throat. (I say proverbial because I do not literally mean violent revolution. Kaladin would rule his lands giving dark eyes equal opportunity and standing. As long as he pays his taxes to the King on time, and obeys the laws, there is nothing the other landowning lighteyes can do about it. Kaladin will be the example that will inspire others.)
The Azir examination system presumably owes something to the Chinese bureaucratic exams. It’s worth mentioning that while a poor person could not become Emperor by taking the exams, he (always “he” of course) could pass the exams and rise from peasant to Mandarin class. You had to be well-off enough to afford tutoring for your son, but that was possible and did, in fact, happen.
@Gepeto: as for forgiving the extermination of entire towns … are you familiar with the Kwangamri massacres? No? Not surprising, almost no one outside Korea is, but Korean forces exterminated, murdered (by my standards for “murder”) at least hundreds, maybe thousands of refugees, apparently out of fear that there might be enemy infiltrators mixed in with them.
https://www.upi.com/Investigators-probe-Korean-War-atrocity/82401252042694/
Historically, this sort of atrocity happened and still happens. Winston Churchill ordered that millions (yes, millions) of Bengalis be allowed to starve when food was available for relief. He’s remembered as a hero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
Is Dalinar really more admired, in-world, than Sir Winston is by English-speaking white people today, in reality? As others have said, no one (least of all Dalinar himself) is arguing that the way things turned out is just. We just think it’s realistic.
@Gepeto You talk about people “getting what they deserve” as if it’s a good thing but let’s look at that mindset carefully. That in real life started out as the “ONLY ONE eye for one eye. it was MEANT to bring fairness as in you plucked out an eyeball, you get ONLY one eyeball taken out and no more. This idea which seemed fair for it’s day ended up not being practical. what’s more. The problem is that when people aren’t satisfied with the justice the LAW gives will they end up they end up taking justice into their own hands?” We don’t know what the next book will deal with perhaps a big part of it WILL be the trial of Dalinar on an international scale? But let me ask you this question. Say Dalinar refuses to defend himself, and someone steps into defend him as an interested party (Given how complicated Azish bureaucracy is if the trial is held there (they would make a great neutral party) this could happen should Navani try to defend him. Saying if you won’t defend yourself, I will defend you.”) and he ends up being found not guilty, or is found guilty but is given a stay of execution until the end of the current desolation, would you still object then?
And YES I know this is entirely speculative. That being said I think it would be neat to see this happen. ESPEICALLY if the latter is the result. A guilty verdict but with a stay of execution seems the most fitting to me.
Young Dalinar was a terrible person. No doubt about this. However, even at his worse there were seeds of the Dalinar we’ve come to admire. His path to redemption seems harder to me because he was raised in a culture that revered every horrible tendency he had. Murder a town? Praises from on high. Stab a brightlord through the face with a Shardblade? Your idol, your guide sprouts gloryspren and smiles for your accomplishments. How hard is it to turn from atrocities when everyone looks upon you with awe and respect for doing them? Evi is the only dissenting voice he ever had and he accidentally kills her along with a couple thousand residents. Despite the atrocity he gets praises for nearly single-handedly ending the Alethi resistance. Throughout it all the only person who really sees his actions as deplorable was himself. Dalinar earned his redemption arc in my eyes. Moash had far fewer deaths on his resume but makes up for it in betrayal. I know there’s disagreement with my view. And admittedly if we met Young Dalinar first I’m not sure I’d feel as much sympathy for him as I do.
BTW the lowest officer rank in the modern day army is indeed Lieutenant but I’m not sure of the Alethi rank structure. Captain is pretty high rank regardless of military structure, though some organizations place Captain as a rank higher than others.
Originally “captain” could be anyone who led a group of soldiers, and “lieutenant” meant something like “assistant officer”. (“General” comes from “captain-general”, meaning a person who leads an entire army by being the “captain of its captains”.) It’s very hard to know how the Alethi use those words.
@133 Evilmonkey
I feel like the Alethi rank structure does match. One of the references I made in my earlier posts, where Sigzil was assigned as their clerk because he could read glyphs, Kaladin also named some of his men lieutenants. He made a point to say Dalinar may not have a problem with that (the implication to me is that by being a lieutenant themselves, they would not be in a position where they could command another lighteyes as they would be of the same rank, while Kaladin as a Captain could and that is why it was so more shocking), but if he does they would just have to come up with some other sort of rank. I do find this dynamic very interesting, and find this level of depth and realism very cool :)
@134 Carl
I can dig more to find more applicable quotes but I do feel based on the book, lieutenant is the lowest one can go and still be considered a “commissioned officer” which is in line with what my research says is modern day military ranks, and would match Evilmonkey’s confirmation regarding modern day ranks. I also feel based on the information I found, no commissioned officer has ever been a darkeyes and Kaladin is the first. Below lieutenants is where you get sergeants, and so on. That would be where the bulk of the army resides and would be dark eyes. Now I am sure you could find lighteyes among the lower ranks. In fact in Words of Radiance page 993, Dalinar muses to himself while watching Roion’s archers, that a good chunk of them are lighteyes because not all lighteyes can be officers. So archery is viewed as an acceptable calling for them. Personally I find these additional pieces of information very interesting.
Scath @135:
I am pretty sure that it is also mentioned somewhere that heavy infantry are lighteyes too, which makes sense since dark-eyed spearmen are restricted to spears and daggers, with certain latitude for non-coms to use axes.
Interestingly enough, dark-eyes aren’t forbidden archery, as we have seen a dark-eyed hunter in Kaladin’s chapter in OB, but of, course, since it requires lengthy training, ideally from childhood, more lighteyes would have had access to it.
@136 Isilel
Great point about the heavy infantry. My theory regarding what weapons are permissible for dark eyes vs light eyes is that Sanderson is drawing on a real moments in history much like how we discussed Azir was drawing upon India. In Feudal Japan on March 28th 1876, the Meiji government issues the Haitorei Edict. This Edict prohibited people, with the exception of former lords, the military, and law enforcement from carrying weapons in public. This was one of a series of steps taken by the government to abolish the samurai (cough radiant cough cough) class. The first Haitorei prohibited farmers and merchants from wearing swords. Before even that, when the Japanese invaded Okinawa and set up a police force, all arms that were a means of protection for the citizens were confiscated and termed illegal. Dead shardblades are all in sword shape, and the light eyes want to keep power among the light eyes, so the darkeyes are forbidden to use and train with swords. This would also aid in keeping shardblades out of darkeye’s hands, as it did come up with Vasher/Zahel, as well as Adolin that regardless whether you prefer to use swords or not, training with a sword allows you to better fight an opponent who does use one.
I’m sure part of the reason for light-eyed heavy Calvary is that just like in real life, horses are expensive. Much more expensive comparatively on Roshar than on Earth but still more than a vast majority of darkeyes can afford. Alethkar is not yet at the point of having a professional army that provides all the material a soldier needs to fight, although they are close.
The Alethi order of rank is the same as that of a modern day army. The reason I say I’m not sure it’s the same is because there are some ranks that are missing in the Alethi rank structure. So while a Captain outranks a Liutenent outranks a Sergeant, are all the Sergeants in the Alethi forces the same rank or are there some Sergeants placed above others? Lieutenant is the lowest Commissioned Officer rank but there’s a different type of officer in the army, a Warrant Officer outranks all Sergeants and although is below a Liutenent they often find themselves placed outside the traditional rank structure. Finally, there’s Captains in both institutions but it seems a short step from captain to General in Alethi, as in there’s no rank in between. Not so in most modern militaries, not just the US. Hopefully that’s not too confusing.
They used the term Battalionlord at some points, which I took to be the rank of someone in charge of a battalion, sort of the Alethi equivalent of Colonel.
Been away and trying to catch up, so pardon the late post. Just a few comments:
Lyndsey: Thanks for sharing a great story about Brandon’s “tuckerization” of your name! I also appreciate that Brandon kinda based some of her personality off of his perception of you as well. It must be among the greatest feeling to see your name (and other likenesses) in print. As someone with a less common name (at least in America), I can also appreciate the thrill in seeing a version of your actual name in print (which is probably why I adopted the Skybreaker, Ki, as my new favorite minor character).
Re: military ranks – The Alethi also have the high marshal position (Amaram, Azure and Perethom), which appears to be equal to or above general.
Re: Moash and redemption – I look forward to even more of this discussion once we get to the Moash chapters. Personally, I would be quite content for Brandon to have Moash remain a villain with no redemption arc, so we can all continue to dislike him greatly.
One other thing about Alethi military ranks: their non-com ranks are a bit different in that “squad-leader” is senior to “sergeant” and they command what we’d call a platoon – or at least that’s how it was in Amaram’s army. I can only assume that in mixed Alethi forces that include both dark-eyed and light-eyed soldiers, rather than just officers, such as Dalinar’s elites, Kholinar palace guard, the Cobalt Guard, archers, etc., dark-eyes couldn’t be non-coms either.
BTW, we’ll come to it in a bit, but isn’t it odd that Kholinar Wall Guard was exclusively light-eyed, but more prestigious Palace Guard and Cobalt Guard were mixed?
@138 EvilMonkey @139 nightheron @140 KiManiak and Isilel
Since I gathered a bunch of info, as well as direct responses to your posts, I figured I would lump it all up in one go lol. So first, I re-read the scene where Dalinar and Kaladin flesh out what rank Kaladin will be. For reference it is in Way of Kings page 984. Kaladin and his command will be outside traditional military structure and only be answerable to Dalinar, his sons, and the King. This means Kaladin cannot be ordered around by any random lighteye, and Kaladin cannot order any lighteye. According to Dalinar, based on the amount of men Kaladin would be commanding, he would normally be a lighteyes of the 4th Dahn and be considered a Battalionlord. Dalinar named him a Captain as that is the highest he would commission a darkeyes. I agree with nightheron that I think the rank of Battalionlord would be equivalent to a Colonel in the modern military. In response to KiManiak, I do not think a High Marshal is equal or above a general. When Dalinar was a General under his brother, Amaram was present and was under Dalinar’s command. Now he could have risen in the ranks since then, or followed Dalinar’s orders through Sadeas who is a highprince, but personally I lean towards High Marshals being high ranked, but still under Generals. KiManiak, can you give me a reference to where Perethorn is mentioned? I wasn’t able to locate him in any of the books, and I was hoping a scene with him would provide further insight.
Now as to the ranks mentioned in the books. We have
Highprince
High Marshall
General
BattalionLord
Captain
Lieutenant
Master Sergeant
Platoon Sergeant
Training Sergeant
Bridge Sergeant (Gaz)
Duty Sergeant
Corporal
Quarter Master
Squad Leader
So it does not look like Warrant Officers are included, or at least we have not seen them yet. The word officer pops up a lot, so it will take some time to go through every instance. While digging for military ranks, I found out another interesting tidbit. Lieutenant was a common rank to give a lighteyed sergeant in a all lighteyed company.
I feel like we are all channeling Sigzil, trying to organize this army.
@132 scath. Nice work compiling that list of ranks from all the posts.
I think Kaladin pretends to be a Corporal when he arranges shelter for the Parshmen in Oathbringer.
Also, in WoR when Dalinar visits Kaladin in prison, Dalinar confirms that Kaladin is the only darkeye to ever be a captain in this army.
Edited to add: I agree with 140 KiManiak that High Marshall is above General.
@143 nightheron
LOL well like Sigzil said, someones gotta figure this stuff out. Great point about corporal! I have added it to the list.
edit: have moved high marshall above general. will dig for references to support this.
edit2: found it! When Ialai names HighMarshal Amaram as the new Sadeas, she states that he is their most highly decorated general. So it looks like it is a rank within the General rank, like how there are multiple ranks within Sergeant.
Quick thoughts after a vacation – I could say a bunch on all these topics but I won’t. I’ll echo the admiration for Brandon in creating such thought provoking societies/characters:
-Redemption (partly spawned by porphyry-I can’t spell the rest of your name) – I take a slightly more active view than that. Yes, there is grace that opens the door, but (at least influenced by my own worldview) there needs to be contrition and penance as well. It isn’t a completely passive thing. So Moash could still get redemption, but it wouldn’t be so capricious. That said, right now, at least, Moash still has no sense of accountability/responsibilty for anything in his life…but we’ll get there when we discuss Moash. That said, it’s kind of ingrained in me to ALWAYS hope for somebody’s redemption, even though I know for others it’s not a satisfying outcome or can even seem like a cop out.
-Power/roles – totally agreed that while Roshar isn’t the same type of patriarchy that certain societies on Earth are – there seems to be a more balanced disribution of power – it still suffers from rigidity and being locked in. I am totally on Jasnah’s side as well.
Lyn, I loved your story. For me that would be if I somehow ended up in a Star Wars movie, and had enough presence to get a Williams-scored leitmotif. But as this will be his last Star Wars score, and as far as I know, I’m not in it…alas ;)
Scath@142 – Perethom is mentioned as a Highmarshal in the Dalinar flashback in Chapter 76, and referenced as a loss “to Sadeas’s betrayal at the Tower” in Chapter 2.
Amaram’s rank and its place/relation to generals is mentioned in Chapter 22 of OB (As I see you discovered in your post at 144).
Still, an excellent job gathering all of the ranks at 142.
scath @@@@@ 142 – You couldn’t find Perethom because you were spelling it wrong. It’s P e r e t h o m, not P e r e t h o r n.
See also https://coppermind.net/wiki/Perethom
@146 KiManiak
Thank you for the references! :)
@147 Wetlandernw
Thank you for clarifying! :)
Scath @@@@@ 142 the list of ranks- some of the ranks might be more descriptive of jobs rather than signifying rank.
In chapter 26 Stillness in TWoK we have:
highofficer (Teleb)
Perethom the infantrylord
a bridgelord
and a cavalrylord
None of them are capitalized in book
@149 Bellaberry
Thanks for catching that! I do think however that the reason they are not capitalized is because they are meant to be subdivisions within a rank or particular branch, like the subdivisions of sergeant I listed in a prior post. But again, thank you for finding it! :)